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Post by Anato on Jan 25, 2015 14:22:13 GMT 8
"I view suicide as a permanent solution to a temporary problem."
I'm just gonna throw this out there, but it's not always a temporary problem.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Jan 25, 2015 16:50:11 GMT 8
That line is my personal truth, what I believe to be true for me. It is my view after all.
It is not universal, I understand that and I apologize in advance if I have upset or offended anyone.
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Post by Patty on Jan 25, 2015 16:55:14 GMT 8
Do I have a suicide scenario yes its the same one as I had 45 years ago ,the last round in the clip is for me. To add something to the mix as we are all family around the table an many of us here are older what are we going to do in the future when we are no longer able to care for ourselves in the manner we need. I will not leave my home alive willingly .I would rather die here as a woman than face disgusting treatment in a facility that don't care and will not care for my special needs. Just a thought and I know ,yes, it sucks but it is in truth reality.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 20:34:19 GMT 8
My kid was in a tree once, ready to jump. We got her down, to the psych hospital. It was hell for all of us. It was during the stalkings..after worse things...
If she had jumped, we would grieve forever, blame ourselves forever.
Same for our youngest, while she was cutting herself, the pain taking her mind off the other pain.
The family is close, it's a different season, another chapter.
Like my friend that crawled out of cardboard box he called home and got sober and helped me get sober said.
The secret of life is outlasting the bullshit.
Outlast it dear ones, for the sake of love.
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Post by Patty on Jan 25, 2015 21:20:07 GMT 8
My kid was in a tree once, ready to jump. We got her down, to the psych hospital. It was hell for all of us. It was during the stalkings..after worse things... If she had jumped, we would grieve forever, blame ourselves forever. Same for our youngest, while she was cutting herself, the pain taking her mind off the other pain. The family is close, it's a different season, another chapter. Like my friend that crawled out of cardboard box he called home and got sober and helped me get sober said. The secret of life is outlasting the bullshit. Outlast it dear ones, for the sake of love. You Trinity are much like the kid in the tree always ready to jump and stretch your boundaries without realizing how much collateral damage you cause. The key is establishing boundaries and staying within them while working on a plan for your future. WE all deal with BS everyday it is just normal life stuff but not adding to it by our actions really helps in dealing with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 22:07:41 GMT 8
I had not seen it that way before.
Thank you for your honesty.
I guess I hurt a lot of people.
That sucks.
Sorry for the drama. I am learning though.
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Post by Edge on Jan 25, 2015 22:24:49 GMT 8
Oh I'm definitely selfish and proudly so. I insist on living when others tell me I should kill myself, among other things. Being selfish isn't a bad thing. It means I take what's mine and step on anyone who stands in my way. Most suicidal people I've met care much more about other people than they do about themselves. I don't. They are far less selfish than I am.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 0:14:45 GMT 8
One of the rather astounding things I'd like to point out that has emerged from this conversation is the fact that we can all argue our points here passionately and do it in a civil manner like adults and not resort to smack down insults because we disagree, we do it agreeably and don't feel a need to get into lock step with other's ideas to feel that our own ideas are valid for us, which shows we can respect one another with different views than our own. Kudos to all as we know this wasn't formerly the case elsewhere!
I was going to step away from the topic altogether but decided to see it through because it was evident that there was more going on here aside from the topic itself.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Jan 26, 2015 1:28:00 GMT 8
There's nothing inherently wrong with selfishness, aka putting yourself before others. Context matters. And in the case of someone who's suicidal, the people who are being selfish are the ones who have the incredible, inhuman gall to blame the victim for their suffering and choices. What's even more shocking is that these people are often friends and family. The very people who are supposed to be there for you in your time of need. To get to the point where your suicidal means you feel utterly crushed and hopeless, and this is when people who love you need to step up. They're the ones who are in a healthy, rational state of mind so the burden of responsibility lies with them to do the right thing. Blaming someone suicidal for not making more rational choices is stupid. Thinking that you have the right to judge them because somehow, someway you just magically know for a fact their suffering wasn't bad enough to commit suicide over is just.... No. While I agree with your comment, the one thing that stands out is what I highlighted. How a person views it and how they react to it is very much the context of it. I'm not dismissing anyone's point of view, I want to hear more, to understand this better. It's a triggering subject and the triggers are ill defined. Mine are. I want to understand more, maybe understand mine and others triggers and why. I can't dismiss viewpoints if I'm to get a better understanding of this. I think that could be at the heart of why we having this conversation, at least a good part of it. You could think of those views being polar opposites, and peoples views depend on their circumstances, previous experience, etc. The context matters. Part of why it is difficult to talk about is that most of us find ourselves in several places in the context at the same time. It's complex, so there is no simply solution, it depends on the context, and that could very well be all over the place. Point of view... That my family turned me away has only a small part in why I dismissed them from my life. I don't blame them, I get where they are coming from, the problem at the time was their point of view didn't work in the context that I was in. I couldn't voice the reasons why in a way that let them see the context from my point of view. What if I was able to do that better? Would it have made a difference? It might have, and I'd probably have still dismissed them for all the other reasons as well, but not that one. I might not have had to go down the road I did, it most definitely was a choice and I felt I had to go left when right was probably a better choice... A solution is better education, but we all know how far those direct kinds of information work. If they don't want to look at it, if it isn't in a context they can except, it's ignored. Point of view, there's an obstruction? Most likely it's just the subject matter. We'd have to change the views of a lot of different things to make it acceptable to openly discuss. It's like this for the view about trans, and this is why it matters to us. It's even stronger for us, more important and at the same time more triggering. That triggering has a lot to do with how we see it as selfish and as selfless. It's both. Where we are determines how we see it. It's very complex in how a person gets there, so it's complex in how others react. Playing the blame game from any point of view or context isn't a solution. Even though we do and always will, it's how people are. So a continued conversation of the validity of those views is most welcome to me. How are we supposed to understand how people react to it both positively and negatively, selfish or selfless? Both of those are a vantage point, their context. A context. A bunch of little ones that make up a bigger one? The conversation is better suited to reading it as understanding those vantage points, the context that it is in for each person. We can talk about how we see it, how we have come to place blame, that is a learning process for us as well. If we could arrive at a solution that incorporates both selfishness and selflessness, we'd be on the right path in talking about it. Bring the context closer for everyone. Leaving the vantage or viewpoints where they are, there's diversity there that is insightful. Dismissing one over the other does nothing. Understanding the context of those vantage points, personal views is everything in a conversation. An argument for or against is just an argument, to find the context and to understand it, I think is a better way to get closer to a solution. It's a good point and I'm glad you brought it up so I could see that better. My vantage point has changed a little, just in thinking about context. Can we get to positive support by understanding the context better than the vantage or view points? I think so, sounds good to me. Wasn't positive support a part of this conversation? Maybe a lot of reason's, but support is the heart of it. It's certainly an important aspect in a discussion about it, there's none of that in arguing about it. And not that we are, but lets back away from the notion that we are close to it and talk some more about our viewpoints, all the aspects of them. If we can understand the context that is a part of the viewpoints, it's easier to have a discussion. I have a feeling there's a lot more to this than selfishness and selflessness. Yep, the context of them... a very good point not to be overlooked. Ativan
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Post by Taka on Jan 26, 2015 3:07:55 GMT 8
right now, i feel like saying a whole lot, but don't have the right words for it. or the right order of words, maybe that's it. but i'll drop this manga on you: bato.to/comic/_/comics/pieta-r5975i recommend it. says something about the context, and how this can be so different for different people. it's possible to be smothered by love. quite an interesting thought. the parents were never selfish, neither was the child. but something still went wrong.
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Post by Valerie on Mar 16, 2016 1:28:28 GMT 8
Oh gosh, well... first of all, i'm sorry for bringing back to life a rather extremely old thread?? But well, it's just the topic is rather an extremely sensitive subject for me, and has a huge impact on me. Well gosh, ummm... i must warn this'll probably be a really long post, and quite a few triggers but uhh.. okay.
So i've had thoughts of killing myself since i was 13 years old. I must say, i always felt really weird about that, and it got worse for me going into an extremely dark place most of my teen years. I never actually acted on them, i mostly always thought of my mom, and my family, and how i couldn't bare to hurt them, put them through any pain. And to be honest i never actually saw suicide as a solution to problems. I always kinda saw it as ending all the pain, all the hurt, self hate, and thinking i'd never accomplish anything anyways. I would think it was more of a everyone else was selfish for asking, or wanting me to live for them, when really deep down I just wanted not to exist anymore. I just wanted to be dead, i wanted everything to just stop!! But I always fought through those dark times too because i also knew that deep down i didn't want to end my life. I was living in a state of always both wanting to live and be alive, but also always feeling dead inside, and not wanting to exist at all.
But well, two years ago my mom killed herself. None of us saw it coming at all, and it was just very all of a sudden. It really devastated me, and for awhile there at first for the few months of losing her I was drinking so much, and drunk every week trying to numb the pain, and just to stop feeling. And the things that would keep running through my mind was guilt of wondering if there was anything I could have done, or what if I had payed more attention to her? Trying to look back for signs. And I just really internalized a lot of guilt towards myself. And i'd always find it ironic that the one person I always fought to stay alive for, and who would always tell me, "I don't know what i'd do without you. You changed my life the moment you were born.", would leave me like she did. It's just the one person who I would always think about, and would be the reason i never acted on my thoughts, left the world the same way i've thought of doing multiple times. I will say unlike others, i was never angry with her for killing herself, and i never questioned why or how she could have done it because I know exactly how she could have gotten to that point, and mindframe. I've been there many many times myself. I'm mostly just glad she's not in pain anymore, or hurting. Even though i'd much much rather to have her still alive here with me. To be honest it still really gets to me. I miss her so much, it literally aches, and i feel like a piece of myself is missing, and i'll always have a hollowness in me where she should.
I mean it's not as bad as it was at first now after two years, but last year, i got really really. bad. I had attempted suicide twice. My first attempt, I was a very... the way i was just decided to end it, i felt so so content, and at peace for the first time in my life. I was ready, and i was closing at work, and just planning what I was going to do when I got home. Well... i was planning on slitting my throat, and i had gotten home, and was going through drawers trying to find knives sharp enough, and i tested them on my arm, and well i had a serrated knife that actually cut deeply into my arm. Then i took the knife to my neck, and tried slashing across my neck, but it wasn't hard enough, and i kept trying more, and more, but i kept not doing it pressed hard enough, and then i just finally completely broke down crying sitting on bathroom floor, and my roommate came out, and saw me crying in bathroom with a knife, and a bleeding arm, and he just went to quickly take it away from me, and he just sat there trying to talk to me, and calm me down. And yea, now i have a lovely scar on my arm to always remind me of that night...
I wish I could say that was my only time of actually attempting, but a second time last year it was coming close to the 1 year anniversary of my mom's death, and plus I was just feeling like such a fuck up, and a failure at everything. I was really deeply depressed for a while, to the point where i'd just imagine taking knives while at working and stabbing myself multiple times, but i refrained from it obviously! (too overly dramatic plus don't wanna lose job.) But well this one day, i had come to that exact final completely content, and at peace with the idea of ending it again just like the first time. I had a gift card from my birthday, and i was planning on mixing bleach and ammonia, well I went to target after work to try and buy both bleach, and ammonia, but target only had bleach. I wasn't ready to just give up on the idea!! I wanted to end it. So I googled other ways to create chlorine gas, and came to reading about mixing vinegar and bleach, so i bought vinegar, and bleach, and then headed home. I got home went straight to bathroom, made sure the window was shut, put a towel to cover the crease like space where the door was, and i poured bleach, and vinegar into my sink, and I just sat there waiting. I know for awhile my throat was starting to burn, but i guess you could say i got impatient, and just gave up and opened my window, and opened my bathroom door, and the rest of all the windows in my apartment. I was feeling so upset, and disappointed in myself for failing at killing myself a second time. But i was trying to figure out if i had gotten the proportions wrong with mixing the vinegar and bleach, or if it was because my studio apartment is just really too drafty since it's an old historic house.
But well since then, i've switched around, and been really really trying on working on myself much more, with building my self esteem, self confidence up, and just really trying to love myself more. I may not be exactly at my goal yet, but i have certainly made a lot of progress. I much better than where i was before. I've even recently started counseling, to talk more about losing my mom, questioning my gender, and other things. I was also actually honest with him in telling him about my two attempts last year. I'm really trying hard to be a better person for myself.
But I will admit, i still tend to have moments, where when i cross the street without looking and just having a feeling of waiting to feel an impact of a car hitting me, or whenever i cross a bridge i stop, and just imagine jumping, or I imagine scenarios in my head of me taking a gun, and shooting myself. I actually couldn't sleep at all Sunday night from having too many thoughts going on in my head, and that was one of them. I could see so vividly in my mind shooting myself, and then imagining the person's reaction of whoever finds my body, and then all the hurt and pain from my family and friends when they find out.
I will say though losing my mom to suicide is another reason from stopping me because now i know first hand the feeling of losing someone to suicide, and plus I couldn't destroy my loved ones like that, especially after how we're still trying to heal from my mom, and i couldn't open up old wounds and rub lemon juice into them. I've also been trying to find a suicide support group, but i keep just ending up with dead ends in my area. Like while i was waiting for my last counseling session appointment, i saw a pamphlet for a suicide support group and I took it with me. When I finally had the courage to call number, I heard ringing, and then, "This number has been disconnected" i just felt really annoyed. I don't know... Wooww... I'm really sorry for completely long post.
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Post by Trinity on Mar 16, 2016 7:24:39 GMT 8
Don't be sorry for the really long post Valerie.
I don't know where the links are but there are some suicide hotlines available. Maybe one of the other senior members has the numbers.
Glad you are still around. It may well be that you were meant to fail, and are meant to reach out.
This forum WILL help your self esteem especially as it relates to your gender.
The pain of mourning a suicide is indescribable. In sensitivity to other members pain I will only say that some folks in here know what it is, you are not alone. I am deeply sorry to hear about your mother.
I dunno, is the Trevor Project appropriate? Or is there another support system?
Don't off yourself. Give yourself a chance to find who you really are, to find out you are special, to learn to love you. And above all when suicidality starts to come up, out yourself, talk about it. Reach out.
Best wishes
Trinity
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Post by Valerie on Jun 16, 2016 1:45:16 GMT 8
everydayfeminism.com/2016/06/things-to-stop-saying-to-suicidal-ppl/ I just read this really great article on how to support those who have thoughts of suicide. I actually must take notes to keep in mind the suggestions it said to help others if I ever in situation where a friend or loved one comes to me. I wanted to share it with you guys as well. I just didn't know where to post and share this article. I hope here is good ?
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Post by Trinity on Jun 16, 2016 3:41:51 GMT 8
Yes its fine Val.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2016 6:30:06 GMT 8
Valerie. Like others have said suicide is no defense because we do not know what happens after this life. Just live it and if you go through hell then welcome and if you have a good life then welcome too. We are all going to die soon enough and no reason to hasten the process.
Yeah sometimes life sux. Sometimes it don't. The more you let other's ignorance bother you the more it will suck. The more that you can use your special abilities to help others or make your own way the better it is and the less the idiot's ignorance will effect you. You can be trans. Some won't like. Others will, others yet will be your allies and others still will live their own lives and let you live yours. So take what I said and think that only 25 percent of society will be the ones that are ignorant and possibly dangerous. 60 percent could probably give a shit less and 15 percent are your friends and or possible lovers.
So no the only way that I would ever consider suicide is in a terminal illness situation in which there is no possible chance of survival. Or a Hot Situation in which there is no chance of survival. Bu as long as there is a chance then I will keep on keeping on.
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