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Post by Metamorph on Jan 24, 2015 13:27:09 GMT 8
Ativan, there's something I want to say to you but my words get tangled up. You do matter. I'm not denying anything you wrote above. And it's the mattering that happens here over the internet. It's a weird sort of thing. I've seen how people react, when you leave here or the other place. I know how your words have touched me, like tonight. Does that do a damm bit of good? I don't know. Except right now, you aren't just words on a screen your a human who spoke to my heart and said some of the things I couldn't say. And I hurts knowing the shit you've been through. Between the abuse and people not helping when you are in that place, if I had to choose, I think I'd take the abuse.
I had to say what I said because that word selfish was used as weapon by my family. And because when I back in that place where I sometimes had to focus on getting through the next 5 minutes, I beat myself up with that word. Because then, when I heard suicide called a selfish act, it was just one more reason to hate myself. One more stone in my pocket. If someone is reading this and in that place, I want you to know you aren't selfish. You're not. I really don't give a shit what anyone else says. Unless you've been there you don't get it. And I am not going to say "it gets better" because I know that's probably not enough. That's something else people think, that those words fix things. Tell someone whose body is riddled with burns and broken bones, it gets better. If that's the all the medicine you give, don't expect it to save that person's life. I wish it was that simple. And if you tell them they are selfish because there screams of pain will cause other people trauma they will have to live with forever, don't expect it to help.
And with that I'm done. Edge and Ativan thank you for speaking your truth.
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Post by Edge on Jan 24, 2015 21:10:41 GMT 8
Ativan matters to me. That said, for some reason, people with a physical presence tend to be better for loneliness than talking to people over the internet. (No offence to anyone here. It's the same with my friends in my city. Talking to them online is nice, but it doesn't come close to seeing them in person.) I have also had a long history of people not caring. It's gotten to the point where I don't believe people can and that I will always be by myself against the world so to speak. I've found (mostly through my own experiences, but also what I've learned from others) that arguing with people that things will get better and are that things are not as bleak as they seem doesn't help. It makes the person feel invalidated because their thoughts and feelings are being denied. When people do that to me, it feels horrible. So I try to acknowledge how they feel and be understanding while saying things that I hope will help inspire them to come to the idea that things will get better themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 21:25:50 GMT 8
Sorry shan, but no.
Suicide is not a selfish act. Saying that it is, is just another way of stigmatising those of us with mental illness. I think the thought process runs a bit like this: Suicide is selfish = it's a rational choice = mental illness isn't really a illness = get over yourself/you just want attention/think happy thoughts/why don't you just stop being sad.
Suicide is not a rational act, because the last time I made a serious go of it I in my room in a house full of people, and I couldn't go and talk to them because I knew they didn't care and hated me (which was utter rubbish, but you see. Not rational)
It's not rational for me to have some minor and silly little set back and to be three quarters of the way through planning how to do it, before realising it's something that doesn't matter.
Makig suicide a selfish act put agency for a persons actions squarely back in their hands, rather than acknowledging that they are only in that position because they have had their agency taken away.
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Post by Taka on Jan 24, 2015 23:38:01 GMT 8
telling people that suicide is selfish, really only adds to the burden. those very words can be the last straw that breaks the camel. words can kill.
i don't see any selfishness in taking suicide. there was never a situation in my life before i got pregnant, when suicide would be selfish. my own mother did not value the person i really am. which means she never even loved me, she still doesn't. the person she claims to love is someone else, and it is her selfishness that drove me into a corner where death truly was the only way out. that, or waiting. waiting and suffering.
so i waited and suffered, and found it worthwhile because me being alive enabled me to add a little bit of happy and positive to my younger siblings' lives. but running away would never have been selfish. they didn't truly care for my wellbeing, so why should i ever care about them? and dying wouldn't give me any reward whatsoever, all it would do is end suffering.
though i'll agree that inconveniencing perfect strangers is kind of selfish. train drivers in japan need to have a strong stomach to work on some of the worst lines. they end up seeing many body parts in places they shouldn't be. but people usually aren't in their right mind when they jump. can't blame a mentally ill person for not being able to fix themselves. instead blame society, their close family, coworkers, people who knew but never cared to help.
though in some cases, there's nothing to blame and no way to fix it. you can't blame children for dying in horrible accidents, and i find it very hard to blame a parent who lost children that way, for ending their suffering. when "if only..." keeps haunting someone every day and every night like that, i really can't blame them for being weak. humans are weak. i'll never expect anyone to be strong enough to go through that every day, i will pray that they find peace in death.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 0:30:19 GMT 8
I needn't backtrack on what I said other than it is a generalization concerning people who are mentally lucid but simply overwhelmed by something they refuse to deal with and work through. Let's face it, those who are seriously mentally ill couldn't possibly be held accountable for their actions, suicide included. But I'll stick with the idea that someone who is mentally rational and has other options, but kills themselves anyway without regard for the collateral damage they inflict on others, then they are acting selfishly.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Jan 25, 2015 4:07:57 GMT 8
Just google the words suicide and selfish, and also look at all the other variations of that. Selfless, selfishness, etc. Google even comes up with some good alternative ways to search for you. Over 40,000 people kill themselves each year. Look at who kills themselves and which groups are the highest. The US is 30th in suicides/ 10,000 people. Greenland is the highest, Haiti is among the lowest at zero. If this stuff triggers anyone, don't go there looking. It's pretty bad.
Looking in hindsight and finding justification that make those left behind feel less hurt by placing blame on the dead is common, they don't want to go there in their minds. There are an abundance of warning signs, even people declaring they are going to kill themselves, and they do. I did. That hindsight of selfishness didn't help a single one of them. But in hindsight, we tend to see that 20/20 idealism of things. It's to bad that in foresight, when 20/20 is just as easy, that nobody did anything to stop those 40,000 people. As someone who has actively pursued suicide, despite the divine intervention methods and pretty much was dead for some time laying on an ER table, when I almost made it, I still can't help but think of all the selfishness from virtually everyone that led to that point, those selfish people who in their hindsight, would dare to call me selfish after I simply asked them to help me, to please help me from killing myself. And they gave me the means to do it and showed me the door, discharged from a psyche unit, knowing full well what my history of suicide was. I even told them I was going to take all the Haldol and they knew, as I knew, it was more than enough to kill a person. It is so over the top mentally disturbing to have so many people tell you or react without caring, I would say that selfish belongs to them.
The articles that do talk about it as if it was a selfish thing to do are very disturbing to read. They give a lot of insight into just how selfish people are and it is unnerving for me to even read them. I'll be pretty much triggered for the rest of the day, so if it might, just maybe, could be triggering to anyone reading this, don't go there. I'm still good, I'm not going anywhere, I have no reason to, even though I see it on the horizon everyday. I just can't see the reason as well as I can see the selfishness that is there.
I can feel the mental anguish from every single person who inconvenienced others in their deaths, they were leaving you all a message. But in hindsight, you read it wrong, because you don't want it to be a part of your foresight, it's inconvenient and disturbing, hard to deal with I suppose. So if anyone is getting to the point, let me know. It is never far from me, that mentally disturbed feeling, I can deal with it, I have to. I might not have the answer your seeking, but you won't be alone in the anguish you're feeling. I can and have done that.
Sometimes that's good enough, to understand that someone can share that, it just might be enough to help. I've been there as well. The person who helped me through the last one, comes and see's me every month. Not because I need it, because we share that, have a bond that keeps me going. She shares that with other people, she talks to them about what we talk about, even though we don't all that much anymore, we don't have to. We understand it. And that's what she shares with others, understanding. That's all it takes sometimes, it's not inconvenient at all, it is selfless. Selfishness never was a part of the understanding, selfless is what the understanding is.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 4:21:53 GMT 8
Jesus I really hate being preached to about shit like this! Go ahead and continue on with your suicide ideation I won't say another word to discourage you. If you read about my failed attempt and don't like my conclusion, it's because you are still considering it as an option, for me it's no longer an option. I had assumed that we were suppose to be offering positive support and to help one another past their bullshit....over and out, I'm done with this conversation!
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Post by Taka on Jan 25, 2015 5:42:18 GMT 8
dearest shantel. i read your story of a failed attempt. it's perfectly ok that you concluded the way you did about your own case.
but i still can't agree with you calling any suicide selfish. when a person who is hated by their entire family suddenly goes and kills themselves, what right does anyone in that family have, to call them selfish? aren't they only caring about appearances?
i'm not telling anyone to go kill themselves, actually i keep telling people to try living for a few more days, because the world changes every second, and as long as a person still lives, they also have a chance at experiencing happiness. but some people have never experienced much happiness in their lives, so how am i supposed to convince them that this thing even exists? i can't, either they have hope, or they don't. nobody around them cares enough to try to give them a taste of it. happy people are so selfish, keeping their happiness to themselves, never wanting to share with those outside.
the little match girl scenario. if those selfish, happy people would just care to at least buy some matches, she wouldn't have died. but i still fear she'd have ended up dying in one of the following years. she'd never see happiness in her own life. the people who have more than they need, still want even more. greed knows no limits, and those who have nothing will only ever get less.
selfish to commit suicide, or selfish to not care?
of course, if you have a family, kids who need your income, etc, that's a different story. but no too different. it's a common story in some parts of the world, that middle aged men commit suicide after being laid off from work. they know that they can't get another job, economy works that way. they'll die so the family will have one less mouth to feed, one less alcoholic to drink up their money, one less gambling addict to increase their debts. selfish in one way, but seriously. statistics says they're not. apart from the cleaning up of course. better to od at home than jump in front of a train, saves society some money.
and some people might even be doing the world a favor by dying. if you ever find yourself about to rape a little kid, consider dying instead. i'd call that a selfless and heroic act.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 6:10:51 GMT 8
We all know that life's unfair and I understand that there are some mentally ill people who just can't deal with it, but there are many and I'd guess that there's probably an inordinate number in the transgender community that simply refuse to take any responsibility for any of their self generated problems and blame everyone else. Boo Hoo, I can't get my way and everyone is mean to me so I'll kill myself. They don't get any sympathy from me, when I read this thread from start to finish what really comes through loud and clear is that it is a viable option and I'd not wish anyone looking in to think as much and so I will excuse myself from any further discourse rather than be complicit in some hapless moron's death.
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Post by Emily on Jan 25, 2015 7:06:17 GMT 8
Double post
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Post by Emily on Jan 25, 2015 7:13:21 GMT 8
Oh, god, please, not again! This starts to remind another place from another time, which is something we tried to avoid. Can we please try to de-escalate this one before words are said and deeds are done which cannot be unsaid and undone?
Yes, in most cases there are alternatives to suicide, it is just being in that state of mind, people not always are able to think clear and see them, or they dont want to take up those alternative routes for various reasons (one of the being that pursuing that alternative at that time seems worse than death). And yes, almost every time people will suffer, but they will suffer if someone would pass away unexpectedly (which in this far from perfect world can happen to anyone of us here anytime - just look at traffic accident statistics - it takes being in the wrong place, wrong time, taking wrong decision and having a drunk driver on the road). But again, the pain does go away (which is probably the biggest blessing) and people will forget. And when they will remember each time their pain will be more and more dull. And eventually, it will be forgotten, like it never happened or mattered, because the lifespan of memories is as long as the human being exists to live and tell that story. And in the face of the Universe, all our single stories are just dust. Or even less than it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 8:35:14 GMT 8
Oh, god, please, not again! This starts to remind another place from another time, which is something we tried to avoid. Can we please try to de-escalate this one before words are said and deeds are done which cannot be unsaid and undone? Don't worry Emily, it's not as bad as all that, just a big family around the table having a discussion about something we have differences of opinion about. Families do that it's OK!
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Jan 25, 2015 9:22:13 GMT 8
This conversation changes nothing about how I view each person in it. Maybe about some things said in all of this, and it's enlightening in it's own way. How our views and sensitivities have manifested, simply adds to the conversation. I personally like it, I don't see it as an argument, but rather strong beliefs and we are talking about those as well here. It's about time we had a go for it kind of conversation instead treading lightly around each other as if we are going to break. I read through all of this and see some very charged emotions, but none that are out of control. It's a topic, as has been said, that is a difficult one to talk about. We're finding peoples boundaries here, and the boundaries of the topic itself. We each stand behind what we have to say and it's rich in the content and viewpoints. We pretty much know where we all stood on this beforehand, and now we're talking about it. I'm finding out some things from some I didn't know. It adds to who we are here, a lot. I did put up some hotlines, It should be pinned and maybe even in a couple more spots, they are important. Not everyone is going to agree about something this important. This affects us all in too many ways for it not to. I'm happy that at least some have seen this and have strong opinions about it. How it affects each of us is important, we see and hear about it all too often, and there is bound to be different reactions.
I think it's time take a different tack now, this course has taken us off track, but still in the conversation. There are many more things about this we can talk about. This is a small facet of what there is to say. It's a tough topic. Mostly because there is so much of it that trans people deal with it directly or indirectly. It is a very triggering subject and I'm sure there are some who have only been able to peek in on this one. I even said it was for me, but it's not so bad I won't talk about it. We need to keep talking about it.
And sorry if it got a little heated, but consider the sources. Me and Shan. And we both already know how we each feel about stuff like this. We know this because a lot of us have become even closer here, and most of us were before we came here. It's nice to see you here Emily, pull up a chair, it's the family table we're sitting at and you're family. Did you think Shan really got up and walked away from it? Nah, still here, arms folded, waiting for the conversation to change. And it did. I hope it doesn't stop. Every member here has something to say, and they should, when the time is right for them. Ativan
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Post by Anato on Jan 25, 2015 12:46:21 GMT 8
There's nothing inherently wrong with selfishness, aka putting yourself before others. Context matters. And in the case of someone who's suicidal, the people who are being selfish are the ones who have the incredible, inhuman gall to blame the victim for their suffering and choices. What's even more shocking is that these people are often friends and family. The very people who are supposed to be there for you in your time of need. To get to the point where your suicidal means you feel utterly crushed and hopeless, and this is when people who love you need to step up. They're the ones who are in a healthy, rational state of mind so the burden of responsibility lies with them to do the right thing. Blaming someone suicidal for not making more rational choices is stupid. Thinking that you have the right to judge them because somehow, someway you just magically know for a fact their suffering wasn't bad enough to commit suicide over is just....
No.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Jan 25, 2015 13:24:56 GMT 8
If the topic triggers you, put coping skills into action - your well-being is top priority. I have stickied the hotline thread Ativan made. (Thank you, Ativan)
I don't view suicide as selfish... I view suicide as a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
I have attempted suicide, more than once - obviously, I failed those times. Why? My stubborn attitude stopped me, I didn't want to leave this world and leave behind a female body.
Yes, it was that simple. The thought of leaving behind a female body stopped me in my tracks into Death's embrace.
I have a fear, what if I finally get a male body and I am still not happy...? What if I will always hate myself...?
I accept my fears, I won't know what will happen until I actually get the surgery. I must keep my mind, my eyes open.
The other day, I realized I feel emotions too deeply, I hated it. I wished I could feel nothing at all... then I remembered, I once suffered a decade of feeling nothing... I ended up cutting to feel something, anything.
Funny, isn't it?
Curly hair? I want straight hair. Straight hair? I want curly hair. Pale skin? I wanna be tanned. Tanned? I wanna be pale.
We all desire the things we wish we had, spend our energy into achieving those things... we forget to be grateful for what we had in the first place.
A bit off-topic but I wanted to put it here. There will be a movie coming out in 2015, called "Sea of Trees" The movie is based on Aokigahara, a forest-densed area at the base of Mt. Fuji where people go to commit suicide. It has Matthew McConaughey and Ken Watanabe as the main characters. Here is the synopsis.
"Arthur Brennan treks into Aokigahara, known as The Sea of Trees, a mysterious dense forest at the base of Japan's Mount Fuji where people go to contemplate life and death. Having found the perfect place to die, he encounters Takumi Nakamura, a Japanese man who has also lost his way. The two men begin a journey of reflection and survival, which affirms Arthur's will to live and reconnects him to his love with his wife."
I am looking forward to this movie, I am sure it will make me cry and reflect on my darkest days where I felt I had no future, where death would be my only solace. I know it will remind me of my reasons for pushing forward as a survivor. We must not let ourselves forget what it feels like to be human, to cry, to scream, to love, to smile. I always search for the movies that tug at my heartstrings, to remind me that I still have heartstrings in the first place...
The twinge of emotion I feel, it reminds me I am alive and healthy... that I am human.
We are all human.
Kind regards
Jacey
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