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Post by EchelonHunt on Sept 26, 2015 20:06:30 GMT 8
A guest called Me wrote a post that prompted me to create this thread Thank you, Me! I hope you can join this discussion, it's interesting to read people's views on the subject. What do you think? Personally, I don't really know what to think. On one hand, I believe the binary causes more harm than good with the way it enforces stereotypes and gender roles from a young age. The way society and general population view gender and sex as one and the same is damaging and limits people's ability to express themselves the way they want to. On the other hand, I always wonder what a gender-free society would be like. No separated clothing sections, like instead of boys/girls, young men/women and older men/women. It could just be kids, adults and elderly. No separated toilets either, . I'm not so sure a gender-free society would eliminate my innate feeling of being male, it would just make it easier for me to embrace my gender expression to the fullest - to be able to wear whatever I like without weird looks or discrimination. My sex doesn't define my identity, it just defines my body and how it functions. Do you see a gender-free society in the future? Devoid of segregated sections? Where we are talked to as a collective group of humans, rather than men and women? Would it be the opposite of what it is now? Like instead of transgender & non-binary having support groups, would it be close-minded cisgender folks having support groups since without the gender binary, there is no sense of order for them and their views are rejected by their peers or people who have embraced the gender-free society...? I imagine people would freak out, especially about sharing bathrooms with men or women. I wish every single toilet was like a disabled stall, just a single room with a sink and a toilet. It's weird, I feel "safe" in the disabled/unisex stall. Maybe who knows, the very things that separate men apart from women, things like being able to give birth and the ability to impregnate someone... maybe humans will evolve to be able to reproduce asexually (called parthenogenesis). That would be interesting, the day when sex between a man and a woman for the purpose of reproduction becomes ancient history, the next Stone-Age. Too bad I won't be around to see it (if it even happens) What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 23:36:16 GMT 8
Cant see it but could see a little oasis country of it.
The conditioning and the instincts i think drive the binary, along with social and peer pressure and media. By instinct im thinking the maternal or the protective and dominant ones, not to stereotype, but i noticed thats part of me not being female spirited.
Not to say the traits are birth gender assigned. But the vast majority...
I think different from the binaries. They dont ghink like me. How much is hardwired and how much isnt i dunno.
So my answer?
Dunno. But maybe they can loosten up a little.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Sept 27, 2015 0:19:16 GMT 8
I don't think protective or maternal instincts are gender stereotypes, hormones are powerful, mind-altering stuff after all.
Testosterone has made me stronger, more in-tune with my logical side, the emotional sensitivity levels has been dialled down (thank God, no more crying breakdowns from depression/dysphoria/hypersensitivity to estrogen levels). I've also noticed I rely on my gut instinct more than my feelings, it has saved me from a few drastic situations to say the least. On the downside, I find I say things without thinking twice... or rather I do think twice about what I'm saying, think it sounds fine but the person on the other end who is easily swept away by emotions takes it completely out of context.
(Erugh, it reminds me of my old self who overreacted to the little, stupidest things.)
Pre-T, I had a hard time understanding girls and how their minds worked. Like the social cues, the invisible rules, the things I would say that they would react badly to but refuse to say exactly where I went wrong.
Does this mean I've been conditioned to think male even though I haven't been brought up as a male, even though I believed I was a boy from a young age... before I was taught the difference between boys and girls, along with puberty...?
Methinks I'm thinking a little too hard about this har har.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 1:40:04 GMT 8
A guest called Me wrote a post that prompted me to create this thread Thank you, Me! I hope you can join this discussion, it's interesting to read people's views on the subject. What do you think? Personally, I don't really know what to think. On one hand, I believe the binary causes more harm than good with the way it enforces stereotypes and gender roles from a young age. The way society and general population view gender and sex as one and the same is damaging and limits people's ability to express themselves the way they want to. On the other hand, I always wonder what a gender-free society would be like. No separated clothing sections, like instead of boys/girls, young men/women and older men/women. It could just be kids, adults and elderly. No separated toilets either, . I'm not so sure a gender-free society would eliminate my innate feeling of being male, it would just make it easier for me to embrace my gender expression to the fullest - to be able to wear whatever I like without weird looks or discrimination. My sex doesn't define my identity, it just defines my body and how it functions. Do you see a gender-free society in the future? Devoid of segregated sections? Where we are talked to as a collective group of humans, rather than men and women? Would it be the opposite of what it is now? Like instead of transgender & non-binary having support groups, would it be close-minded cisgender folks having support groups since without the gender binary, there is no sense of order for them and their views are rejected by their peers or people who have embraced the gender-free society...? I imagine people would freak out, especially about sharing bathrooms with men or women. I wish every single toilet was like a disabled stall, just a single room with a sink and a toilet. It's weird, I feel "safe" in the disabled/unisex stall. Maybe who knows, the very things that separate men apart from women, things like being able to give birth and the ability to impregnate someone... maybe humans will evolve to be able to reproduce asexually (called parthenogenesis). That would be interesting, the day when sex between a man and a woman for the purpose of reproduction becomes ancient history, the next Stone-Age. Too bad I won't be around to see it (if it even happens) What are your thoughts on this? Jayce. You bring up some very interesting points. Very interesting. Personally I think we are calling it something that is not quite right. A gender free society would be a rather boring society. Male and female aspects actually compliment one another regardless of the birth sexual characteristics. I think a more appropriate description would be a free gender society in which we can choose how we want to feel without pressure from conforming to one or the other through societal pressures. Personally I don't care to see an asexual society because I enjoy the intimacy way too much. But there are ways to reproduce totally genetically but you still need an egg. Not neccisarily spermatazoa but rather just genetic material. I may be wrong but think I read that somewhere. But :rolleyes:some in society think it is not moral to do so. Cloning I think is probably not a good idea because bad genes and genetic deficiencies will be passed on. The human race has thrived by having two sets of differing genes. Sometimes it doesn't work but bost times it does. I personally would hate to see an asexual society though. That would bore me to death. Just my preferences though. But I would love to see a free gender society or a society that is free to express whatever gender they feel inside, outside. More one than the other fine. One way over the other? fine too. For me gender free means free from gender and I don't really know if I could squash my feeling of self expression. I do think we are heading more toward a free gender society though. Hell I saw Laverne Cox on TV this morning in her dress on the red carpet and no one mentioned MTF or Transwexual or anything else. That gives me hope that she is accepted and even featured for her dress. She was just Laverne Cox. Not the transexual star Leverne Cox. Not the transwoman Laverne Cox but just plain ol' Laverne Cox. Oh and her elegance in her dress. We are seeing something. I know you are way youjnger than I am so... You can't really see it like I can. But times are changinging. From when I was young and called all kinds of shit to now and no one even seeming to care. It is changing though and it is kind of like Christmas morning when you are 5 years old and doesn't seem like it is coming fast enough but when I look back in my mid forties and remember shit the way it was and see stuff the way it is now. It isn't near as bad. And it will keep on getting better. The only thing though is that we have to let these changes happen on their own time. If we try to hard to force them then people and society will resent it. If we let it happen naturally in people's own minds then they will accept it more and more. I would say that in 15-20 years we are gonna be just normal everyday people just like cis men and women. These are just my thoughts. I have seen shit from redneck states to the most liberal states. There are asses everywhere but in general, people could care less as long as someone don't preach to them in the more liberal areas. I have land back home and my nieghbors that live up the hill from me are gay. I could care less, they could care less about me. I am friendly to them and they to me when I do go up. I mean this place is RED-FUCKING-NECK as you can get and prolly a lot of red ass too. Well I'm sure you have read some of what is in my blog. I mean I have old friends coming out of the woodwork that never ever let own. I did the same but they were in their little closets and I had my walkin closet. That was growing up in the eighties and these two guys were there in the eighties and no one really cared back then. Trans was a little more intense though and a little to big of a pill to swallow. Oh but don't let people fool you though. So I really don;t know if it's as much about changing as becomeing more open with less guilt involved. Either way good for us.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 2:01:41 GMT 8
I don't think protective or maternal instincts are gender stereotypes, hormones are powerful, mind-altering stuff after all. Testosterone has made me stronger, more in-tune with my logical side, the emotional sensitivity levels has been dialled down (thank God, no more crying breakdowns from depression/dysphoria/hypersensitivity to estrogen levels). I've also noticed I rely on my gut instinct more than my feelings, it has saved me from a few drastic situations to say the least. On the downside, I find I say things without thinking twice... or rather I do think twice about what I'm saying, think it sounds fine but the person on the other end who is easily swept away by emotions takes it completely out of context. (Erugh, it reminds me of my old self who overreacted to the little, stupidest things.) Pre-T, I had a hard time understanding girls and how their minds worked. Like the social cues, the invisible rules, the things I would say that they would react badly to but refuse to say exactly where I went wrong. Does this mean I've been conditioned to think male even though I haven't been brought up as a male, even though I believed I was a boy from a young age... before I was taught the difference between boys and girls, along with puberty...? Methinks I'm thinking a little too hard about this har har. I think you are thinking a little too hard about it Jayce. As for the protective or maternal instincts and being gender stereotypes? I remember on the old sight and was amazed at how MTFs and FTMs responded to a child's letter to an innocent statement. Everyone here knows what I think of stereotypes. Stereotypes are not really a good thing because we are all unique individuals but male and female gender traits regardless of the physical sexual characteristics are not stereotypes per say as just deeply embedded feelings and those feeling come out as traits and those traits could be confused as stereotypical. OK so I am a stereotype. It doesn't hurt my feelings. I am who I am and if I am a stereotypical female, I don't see it that way because that is just the way I feel. I like feminine things. I cry during sad movies. I like cooking and taking care of my BF or BFs ( never said I wasn't a slut ) but right now just one. I love taking long bubble baths, I like having long hair even though it is a pain in the ass. And on and on and on. Jayce. I really don't believe we are preconditioned. I think we are just naturally who we are. I think it is so much deeper than societal conditioning. It is just something that we feel deep inside ourselves. Hell I grew up a boy. I just have to laugh at that one though because damn, either I was gay or a sissy or not quite right for a normal boy. Didn't do the boy stuff. Hated the boy stuff. Male and female compliment one another and make a whole regardless of the genetalia involved. Most gay friends that I have one is effeminate and one masculine. My best friend that is gay from the old days is masculine and does shit that I absolutely hate but likes effeminate guys. I maybe wrong but it seems like there is more of a pattern than not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 21:57:33 GMT 8
The question of instinct I think is really worth exploring and maybe relevent to this deal here as in the original question.
The hardened binary will then say it is unnatural for us to be trans or for cis to be other than rigid social expectations, because they say it goes against natural instinct that is native to man or woman.
This is why I think it is unachievable, there are enforcers of the binary system and they use their fists and other things as part of that enforcing to keep the rules in play. The rigidity of the current political and church systems are part of that enforcement, but we have many seeing there is something amiss there.
That social system is percieved as threatened as those who are of a different gender or freed mind surface. It threatens their system, it rebels against controls.
We are blamed for eroding the fabric of society and causing divorce, yet it is the binary system that creates the most collateral damage in those desiring to be freed from the matrix we call social construct. The illusions that are of this world and not of spirit and truth. But it is their own greed and lust and inablility to be faithful to their mates that has destroyed the world. And in an effort to fight this, they wont look within at themselves, or they adopt rules of enforcement to try to hold their society together, never treating the spiritual sickness that has destroyed them from the inside out, ugly to look at, easier to avoid and shift the focus to an easy target.
Transfolk dont help the situation when they disregard others and dont make the needed sacrifices in the beginning of our transitions to let those trapped in the matrix catch up to us and find out who we are and why we hurt. Instead they go all or nothing saying that is the end all be all solution to dysphoria. They double down on their pain, invest harder, lose everything, and begin reconstruction, finding out later who they truly are at core, once they go through the trans puberty process and wake up to themselves, whoever they are, full binary or a blend.
As to instinct, while I am quite female bodied, thank God, and getting moreso all the time, I may have more instincts commonly associated with men than with women. And I define that as what I like, what I dont. When I see women, I dont feel a part of. They are fundamentally different from me. When I see men, I dont feel part of, in many ways they are also fundamentally different from me. When I see gay men the same holds true. In a sense like Jayce I become "genderless". But I am not genderless, I have my own gender, its just not theirs, or maybe even yours, its mine. And I really like it.
We talk of components and he/she. They. We also talk of the blending of the gender symphony where all is expressed at once and it is non linear. Due to our social conditioning we see lineal gender, but in reality freed from the matrix thinking it is not. Gender nonconforming, in its truth as opposed to a political reactive screw with their minds head and thought process, and I have no issue with that by the way, I rather like it and I do it myself occasionally, but gender nonconforming simply means we dont fit in the box. We define ourselves, and are free.
So for me, I like jewelry and rings that are female. I like leather and feather earing but not big girly hoops. I like it most when I see in the mirror and the face is ambivalent, can be identified either way, its all in what you percieve, its hard to tell. My gender read is based on clothes and body language and sometimes an unfortunate 5 oclock shadow.
I dont like colored nails but I love long ones and I need them clear polished and sparking. I like everything in the wardrobe and love black leather jackets and a fedora or other really cool hat. Im not into girly. Unless I go full out, and usually that is an expression of my sexuality which is highly feminine and rather ravenous, and sh'e does not get fed as I wont go out of wedlock. But sh'e is fully free to express h'erself, truly, I am me now with my wife, it is the greatest gift of my life. She just wont screw me and I wont ask her too. I'll take love and entangled arms and legs over a 20 minute screw any day any year. For 20 minutes or an hour its not worth ruining 27 years of intimacy and shared souls.
Instinct. I like football and playing it. I like racing, hard. I love horsepower. And I love diamonds. I love different things normally associated with male or female, they are very specific likes and dislikes, and it becomes a blend. The nurturing love, a female trait? The way I watch over this forum like a protective mother? What is that? Its that emotion and trust me it can be fierce. Some have seen the rage when it comes, never screw with the fairy's loves. It is as deep as my love is.
So screw the gender binary it doesnt work for me. But it could be fine for others. Do others accept me as I am?
Not many did down south, but I sure was respected for having the (balls) to be out. Bearded and in mascara in the beginning, yes I like my eyes done, especially when they are "sootball eyes".
Instinctive attractions govern too, I like looking at the guys, I like looking at the girls, I am not so jealous now that I physically have achieved what I need on that level. Its all becoming so much fun.
So is just living. I can be anyone anywhere, my core is my core. Whatever feels comfortable, let it fly. If it doesnt feel true, drop it, because it isnt.
But back to the construct. As a nonbinary, I have no idea sometimes, but it surely is for those afraid to feel anything out of the binary experience, labeling and forcing to either aggressive brutes or to barbie doll plastic. It is the extreme of the social binary, and it becomes laughable in a way, as those conditioned so strongly are totally unable to deviate, because of the programming they were given very young, and their terrible fear of being rejected or facing a truth of themselves they just cannot handle.
Love
Satinjoy
(rereading this I realized I signed with the old binary name. Interesting, wonder why, didnt even notice it. I usually dont do that. )
--Trinity.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Sept 28, 2015 1:13:03 GMT 8
There are lots of things that are social constructs, gender is one of them. The problems with them only come about when someone questions them and those who have a perception of them being something tangible. Gender is by far the root of many constructs that society takes for granted as true and unbendable. So is religion, if it wasn't, there would be tangible proof and it would be the same unbendable proof, no matter where you went. Someone declaring something as proof isn't proof except in their mind, their construct, their version of a general social construct. It's almost like saying that a truck driver was born with a truck, a carpenter with a hammer and saw, the list goes on. Constructs are generally rules (rule of thumb) that people give little thought to as just rules, guidelines, generalities. Even laws are a construct that are based on other constructs and are supposed to be modified as the constructs are modified. If you change a law and the universe doesn't collapse or explode into infinity, then it is most likely a construct, is one way to look at them. Even the laws of physics is subject to change as new information is found... Many of them are necessary to a more or less extent for society to function in general, but not entirely necessary. Just simply google social constructs and then start to include further parameters along with them, like gender construct or social gender construct. It really isn't difficult to understand how and why they are there, but they are the construct of ideas that are strung together to make a truism that is dependent on simple ideas. It's when segments of society use them as if they are the laws of nature or science and express them as unbending fact that they tend to make fools out of themselves and the constructs themselves. We all have and use social constructs and tend to believe some more than others, by not really thinking them through enough. The movie, 'The Matrix' is based on these kinds of constructs that we use to define our world, and shows just how enforced many of them are. I suggest looking into them as a whole before trying to debate just what is or isn't a construct and how much credence any of them deserve. How we perceive the world around us is pretty much determined by how many constructs we accept as a truism, when there isn't really tangible enough evidence to support them. That's not to say they aren't useful, but they pretty much run along the same lines as things like 'Murphy's Law'... A good one to look up as well. It isn't so much that they exist for so many things, as the discussions aren't whether they exist, but rather how necessary/unnecessary and correct/incorrect they are at any given time. It isn't a matter of whether they are or aren't a construct, but rather a discussion as to why and how much they need to be expanded on or even contracted into something simpler. Even the definition of them is a construct, as well. But it is closer in truth than the misinformed ideas that many constructs are based on. Think of them as the paths that lead to a truth, we generally have to travel on them and experience them on our way to finding the truth.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Sept 28, 2015 11:48:30 GMT 8
Murphy's Law!! They mentioned that in Interstellar as the main character named his daughter Murphy I've googled social constructs when Me mentioned gender being socially constructed out of curiosity. I understand gender roles and stereotypes to be gender social constructs... just slapping entire gender into social constructs... isn't this unhelpful as it can lead one to assume that gender identities are social constructs as well? That transgenderism isn't real because if gender is socially constructed, if gender is taught, if gender is not real, then all those people are correct in their argument that what sex you are born as is your gender? Should bigender, genderfluid and androgyne folks stop identifying as male or female because gender is a social construct? Is androgyny part of the gender social construct too? If bigender, genderfluid and androgyne identify as male or female, or a mixture of both, does this make them "less" non-binary than others because they are keeping the gender construct alive, the binary system kicking and screaming? Even though bigender, genderfluid and androgyne fit under the non-binary umbrella all the same, despite having binary genders? I just get the feeling, while yes, it's good to be free of things like gender, in terms of gender roles and stereotypes... there's this attitude that if you don't abandon gender entirely for the silly notion it perpetrates, you aren't a "real" or "true" non-binary. It stinks of elitism and ignores that non-binary transgender folks exist. It reminds me of the attitudes transgender folks hold towards non-binary trans folks, "You aren't trans if you don't identify as 100% male/female." or what cis-folks hold against trans folk, "You aren't trans if you (FTM/MTF) are feminine/masculine." It needs to stop, it make me feel detached from non-binary if people are going to treat each other like that. Fuck binary, fuck non-binary. We have to respect that everyone is diverse in their identities and expression. But what if someone's identity was put together based on society's views and cultural expectations of gender? Their gender is the sum of how feminine/masculine one is being, they validate their gender identity by conforming to gender roles and gender stereotypes by being hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine? I believe this can respectfully be challenged, to incite the person to question the core of their identity, just how much of it is their innate feeling, who they are and how much is an act, an exterior charade feeding into the bullshit society spoon-feeds them? If at the end of it all, they are comfortable and happy with their identity, regardless of what we think and believe, we have to respect that. I'm all for being myself and free of gender, but things like masculinity/femininity & tomboy/femboy are concepts I identify with even though they perpetuate gender stereotypes/roles, it will take time for me to unlearn them. I have already stopped a few months ago, using the term cross-dressing because I don't believe I'm dressing from one gender to the next, I'm just wearing clothes, I'm not playing "drag" or anything like that. That was a huge step forward for me and I can only hope I can shake off the other stuff as well.
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Post by Ayla on Sept 28, 2015 13:04:52 GMT 8
Society by definition is socially constructed and as Ativan points out gender is just one thread, one dimension used by folk to help define themselves, other folk and their relationship with them. Frankly I don't have much time for gender theorists - feminists or otherwise. My focus is on understanding, expressing and being 'me'.
Now what I would really like is a dysphoria-free society. My brain needs low dose hrt to shut down the dysphoria. Its a fact. No amount of andro dressing, FFS, hair removal et al is as effective as hrt is on my dysphoria. Now the fact that I still employ these tools in combination with low dose hrt to find equilibrium, balance and peace of mind suggests to me that gender identity is bio, psycho and social in origin. This understanding works for me but I certainly understand if other folk see this differently and experience or understand gender in other ways.
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 18:12:29 GMT 8
Dysphoria and the constructs.
What is the diff between construct and peer pressures.
Where do our attractions to items that are considered gendered come from?
My meds needed to be transfered,i keep them in one of my purses. Yeah i finally got some nice hand me downs, actually have one thats way cool. A purse was totaaly off limits and not me.
My wife almost fell over, im in social street mode that reads guy and ive got the purse and dont give a damn. But also didnt carry it over the shoulder. Because that would have not blended.
Whats up with that?
I like to travel the spectrum in presentations and i get off on the fact that i can and its quite natural provided its not forced. Whether construct or not i need the self expressions. And dysphoria when my gender splits becomes mind breaking agony. Only awareness of the construct and self counters that. Of having presentation choices that still allow me to be me regardless of what i reveal to others.
Yeah, the trap exists that nb is better than, worse than. Cis started that with their pride and we push back, trans did, we harden. After years of low self estrem caused by being mentally abused calling us ...less than...of course we get into us vs them mindsets.
Volitile thread here lets keep cool folks.
Body dysphoria and hrt needs and becoming me is not about conforming to constructs. Its about learning to be free and fly over them and celebrate that freedom of expression and become eye candy and lose gender role expectations and have sex like i was born to and enjoy anything the world tabooed so long as it causes no collateral damage, without kissing ass just to protect feelings cause wrong is wrong and confrontation becomes inevitable.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2015 0:35:06 GMT 8
One last thing and im letting go.
What the construct does to us and did to us. How it affects self esteem, or turning stealth. That pressure to conform.
It seems to me the most important thing is not to let it get to us. To live free in our heads somehow.
Dysphoria aside, we have enoigh hardship just getting our bodies and hormones fixed. And thermes a lot of layers here to all this.
Gender is confusing to me. Layer upon layer of stuff. Tons of triggers everywhere i look. And emotions.
Its living outside the construct, being it, or even enjoying it without all the reactive judgement from conditioning that i wonder about.
I nearly died from booze at 27. Once large quants were consumed i didnt care a rats butt what anyone thought and out i went. Ending up on the floor of the bar or put in a janitor closet to come to from passing out.
What if acceptance and self esteem had been given young? Would i have walked that path to hell on earth? Or lived a healthy life?
I was gender divergent from cismales. I couldnt handle it, and i now am everything i was taught to hate.
Until i realized the construct is not binding to me. Its theirs. Not my truth.
So self esteem becomes based on being a person instead of an image of what a guy and father is.
Im a good father and i am trans. Its about values and courage not fascades.
Dont lose your self esteem to negativity from that construct. Youre worth so much more than you know.
Trinity
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Post by EchelonHunt on Sept 29, 2015 1:03:39 GMT 8
I just want to clarify that I'm not mad at anyone. I ask questions but I'm not expecting particular answers or any at all, I'm just throwing stuff out there to see if it sticks.
I know I can be a dick with my words, I can be too sharp for my own good, it's not my intention to hurt or offend anyone with anything I say.
If I say anything that's wrong or uncalled for, call me out on it and I'll remove the incriminating stuff from my post. Sometimes I just can't tell the difference anymore until after the fact or until I'm called out on it.
I don't regret making this thread though, it's good - it's given me lots to think about. And Aisla hits the point on the head, I just want to focus on being me, being happy and understanding myself more. I want to help others as well, as much as I can.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Sept 29, 2015 2:41:03 GMT 8
How real are the constructs that society builds vs our own constructs? They are very real, all of them, they are the concepts that we live with and by. I made the comment above and for those of you who have taken another look into them are better off by doing so. Those concepts are the basis for how we live our lives, and the difficulties that we as a group have. Without the constructs, society would be, most likely, based on simple individual survival instincts, maybe elevated to the family unit. We benefit from them when they fit, when they bend to allow and follow all members of society in 'constructive' ways. The farther back you step from them and examine them with each step farther and farther away, the better you're able to see them. It is very hard to imagine the outside of a building you're in if you can't actually see it, to see the constructs, step away from them, get your mind some distance from them. But our everyday lives live within them, we see the results, not the constructs so much, we see them if we disagree with them, if they affect us in negative ways. It's in seeing those negatives that we become aware of them and that allows us to step back and see them for what they are. The problems that we encounter is because far to many people see them as unbendable, static and as if they are the laws of nature, physics, science in general. Individually, we benefit from stepping back and looking at them, much of what we discuss and has been discussed is do to the majority not seeing them for what they are. A lot of time and energy is wasted on countering the effects, rather than understanding them as they are. Once seen for what they are, and we do without really looking at them, we find better ways than to simply push back at the effects. It's kinda like seeing the punch coming at us and instead of bracing for it and thinking about our next throw, we simply move out of the way. The most effective way to win a fight is to either knock them out with the first punch, or let them swing at the air and tire themselves out, using their energy against them when possible. Seeing how the constructs are built and knowing what they are is monumental, it allows you to live with your own, the concepts that you know, that make up your constructs. It isn't the constructs themselves, it's about the awareness of them and being able to see them coming, that gives you the advantages against the negative effects they have for you as an individual, to groups as well. Constructs are the glue, the nails, rivets, welds, and rubber bands that keep society together, that allow us to have or build a society. They are not the buildings or the material that they are constructed of,.. that material is ourselves. Constructs are how we interact in collective ways.
They exist because we made them up, concepts of how society holds itself together. There have been significant changes to them lately that recognizes us as a group, even NB's are better recognized for who we are. But there are so many things that still need to be done. We can look out and see that society itself as a whole lives a better life than many of us, but step out, away and look at how that works. It's a pretty big thing to be able to just do that, society in general doesn't want individuals to do this, it could lead to anarchy if everyone does. The constructs are what built the gatekeepers, we have them for most facets of societal living, which is pretty hard to get away from. The constructs as they have become in many ways, are held together in such a way that if a group expresses themselves differently from those constructs, that group easily can become seen as lesser and wrong, they don't fit the construct, they can even bring about fear that society is doomed if the groups have control over their own constructs. They see that as possibly destroying the current constructs, because of the unbending idea that the constructs are the end all of what holds everything together, change a piece, pull a piece out of place and the entire thing collapses in a cascade of disarray until anarchy reigns and society ceases to exist. The Matrix. These constructs worked in the past as the ways we used to build society, but now that society is virtually everywhere, they are becoming unbendable, as if they are the law. In some cases, they are the law, they are written into a contract that we have to live by or else. Those who can live by them as they are, those who benefit from them the most, stand to lose the most if they are changed. Those who find them harder and harder to live with, we fight the effects, but a better way is to simply show them for what they are, nothing more than constructs, placed there by rules that haven't changed, concepts that haven't changed much, looked at from a safe enough distance, they appear as lies, an untruth, an illusion. Depending on how you see them as an individual, they are what holds us together or they are an illusion of that. You can look at them as being both, a concept of how we live together. Most people do, they aren't concerned with them.
But stepping back and seeing them from a vantage point that allows you to see them for what they are gives you the ability to not let them knock you down as an individual, and for groups that see them as needing to be changed, to keep from being knocked down as well. The problem with them from our points of view is that they have become very rigid, unbending. People talk about the laws of nature when the simple term biodiversity escapes them and they claim to not be scientists, but instead sound off as the gatekeepers of science.
Societal constructs are very evolved and can be confusing to look at, until you become familiar with them and can better sort through them. This discussion is a hard one, difficult to get through, but a necessary one if we as a group and as individuals, we are to be allowed to change the construct in ways that allow it to continue to exist, but has room enough, is bendable enough to include us as we are, not as the constructs demand that we are. We exist, gender is real, it is a real construct and society is based on those constructs, we build them, they are. It's only from a distance that they appear to be an illusion, and it's a good thing to step back and to examine them once in a while. We have been doing that all our lives, some of us more recently figured this out for themselves, what that feeling is that makes them different. Gender is as real as the constructs, it is as real as society itself is, we built that, people did. What is society, if it is something other than just a construct then? We built it because we needed to to become who we are. It just needs to be more flexible and there are some much needed changes to be made if it is to keep existing for the reasons it was built in the first place. There are powerful groups who don't want to see certain changes or even changes at all, as if we have come to the pinnacle of what society should be. That's an illusion right there, as people discover more about ourselves and the universe around us, those constructs need to change to accommodate them. That's really all that needs to happen, it's simple enough to write down, but it is very difficult to change others ideas of just what the constructs are and what really should be done with them.
Overall, we are just one of many changes that need to take place if society is to keep growing and become what it is supposed to be, everyone on the same page. We see what needs to be done for ourselves, but we need to take the same approach as all the other changes and make sure that those who wish to remain the same because it suits them, are moved out of the way or move around and past them, leave them at the wayside, take away their power to be gatekeepers. There is no first punch in this, society has always been in a fight one way or another. Just as communication has become such that we can band together, it has made it just as easy for those who wish to stand in the way. Those who do stand in the way, we need a way to walk around them, leave them behind. They can choose to catch up if they wish to, but it is not our place to change them, it is our place to change the concepts, to change the constructs so we fit them better than those who are so unbendable in their thinking, so limited in their views of how this all works. Constructs can be seen as something bad, or they can be seen for what they are supposed to be. We can stand off and point to the individual ones that we disagree with and say they shouldn't be there, or we can simply change them to better suit us as a part of society as well. We can sit and argue about the constructs, or we can change them to better suit us.
Gender is one of the societal constructs, but society is a construct itself. It is an illusion, but it's one we built because we can, it just needs to be updated. If it is to exist at all, it has to be bendable and able to be changed. Ativan
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Post by Ayla on Sept 29, 2015 4:15:30 GMT 8
Jacey
Thank you for this thread and for your leadership. You have never been anything but inspiring and supportive
Ativan
Your last post is extremely useful, thoughtful and comprehensive. I don't know how you do this but please keep doing it!
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2015 4:49:33 GMT 8
I find myself agreeing with just about everybody here in one way or another. However, one point I’d make myself is that the idea that gender is merely a social construct depends on what we mean by “gender”. If we’re talking about gender roles or gender expression, then I’d largely go with the notion that it is indeed social construct. But if we’re talking about physical gender, then it’s not. Willies and vaginas are not a social construct. Those are objective reality.
We can also consider what is commonly called “gender identity”. I think it’s very problematic to say that that’s a social construct. After all, we trans and NB people constantly insist, “I am what I am.” Speaking for myself, if gender identity was a social construct then mine would be male, since society invested a lot of time and trouble in trying to assure that it was. But society failed on this point. My gender identity isn’t male.
What then is it exactly? I can say that it’s female—because I feel more of an affinity with the women around me than the men, and I’ve always felt the need for the body parts that women have rather than those men have. Is there some presence in gender identity of a social construct? I think I’d need some convincing on that point.
But it is absolutely right to say that gender roles are a social construct, and traditionally they’ve been constructed to favor one sex over the other. But as has been pointed out, they can evolve and in fact in our part of the world have been evolving in recent times. We made the rules of the game and we can change them if we see fit.
Now for me it’s this last bit, “if we see fit”, that concerns me. My main interest is in maximizing human happiness, and if by chance artificial constructs or roles or stereotypes actually make people happier than they otherwise would be, I could go along with preserving them. Just because something is artificial, that is, not natural, doesn’t necessarily make it bad. What after all is more unnatural to human beings than swimming? Unlike fish or dolphins, our bodies aren’t designed for it. But we do it and enjoy it anyway.
A case in point: I once saw a poll that indicated that 75% of Irish women don’t want to make a career their first priority. That is, they do want some sort of job, but they also want to devote time to their families and homes. The usual way of putting it is that women want a more balanced lifestyle than men. Now: is this a result of our artificially-imposed gender roles or a reflection of something that is deeply innate in women or perhaps a bit of both?
I personally don’t know. I can see arguments on both sides—and of course the notion that it might reflect something natural in women is dangerous. Some people use the argument that because A is natural, it is also imperative. This is a fallacy. We’re not necessarily required to do something simply because it’s more natural to us than something else, but there are people who will nonetheless do everything they can to enforce the argument.
For me, the argument is moot. If 75% of people are happy doing something and it’s beneficial in ways and otherwise harmless, then I see no reason not to let them do it, regardless of whether it’s natural or a construct. But if their view of the matter changes, then in order to keep them happy we should try to go with those changes.
This point is especially relevant to me personally. In the little town I live in, I’m the only LGBT person who is out and visible. And in the time that I’ve been out, how many people have been inclined to imitate me, change their gender expression or their role in life as part of a move towards a gender-free society? Exactly none. In this town, the women are clearly women and the men are clearly men, and nobody seems to want to change that.
And my view is, do I have a right or even a need to try to encourage any changes? I don’t think I do. I’m certainly not inclined to even try. They’re good people, and they’ve been good to me. Why try and change them? Furthermore, they seem happy enough. Given that I’m generally in female circles, you will hear women complain about this and that. But what they’re complaining about is things that they see as unfair to women. That doesn’t mean they have any interest in eliminating the concept of “female”.
What I want for myself is the freedom to be what I am. And they're granting me that, so what complaint could I have? I personally don’t see the problem as gender difference. I see the problem as disrespect.
And disrespect comes in all different guises. There’s not just sexism in the world. There’s racism and religious bigotry and all sorts of –isms that cause a great deal of unhappiness. We are a diverse species, and we’re never going to eliminate diversity, even assuming that that would be a good thing. What we need is respect for each other—and we can do that without trying to change anybody. Accept them, respect them as they are.
I myself suspect that there will always be some gender differences, both because of the biological differences between the sexes and also because I see gender identity as an objective fact. This is to say that I see cismale and cisfemale as objective realities in a very basic sense, just as I see trans and non-binary and gayness and so on as objective realities.
Whatever artificial constructs (and they are many) we build on top of those may or may not contribute to human happiness as a whole. But if someone wants to regard me as nothing more than a reflection of a social construct, I’ll still defend my right to be what I am. I’m happy with the way I’m living now, and I don’t see any need to change. I have no doubt that things will continue to evolve, but I prefer to let people evolve as they will. I don’t want any input from them, and I don’t think they need any input from me.
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