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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2015 2:25:33 GMT 8
Star, thanks for the link. A very interesting article, though I myself wouldn’t agree with a word of it.
Now a lot of times we draw a distinction between “sex” (what you are physically) and “gender” (what you are psychologically). The question raised in this thread was, is gender a social construct? My view—and I think some people here agree with me—is that whereas things like gender roles and stereotypes are certainly constructs, gender identity isn’t. My gender identity is female, and society didn’t construct that. It is what it is, and I am what I am.
The woman writing this article seems to disagree. She keeps saying that gender is a social construct, but then she goes on to say that sex is as well. Now we know that there can be variation in chromosomes, hormone levels, etc., and we know that there are people who are born in a somewhat ambiguous situation.
But she says this: “There’s nothing intrinsically male about XY chromosomes, testosterone, body hair, muscle mass or penises.” Well, sorry, but there is. If you’re made like that, you’re never going to get pregnant, e.g., whereas if you’re the opposite physical type, you might someday, depending on various factors.
In other words, she’s saying that both gender and sex are social constructs. I say neither of them are. I am what I am. I was born with one type of body and another type of soul. That’s what makes me transgender.
What this woman doesn’t like about my view is that it allows people to say that transwomen aren’t “fully women” and transmen aren’t “fully men”. You can argue all you like about what “fully” might mean, but the inescapable fact I have to face is that I wasn’t born the way I wish I had been. There’s just no getting around that. Call my body a “social construct” if you like, but the fact remains that it was what it was and that fact was my biggest problem in life. No amount of fancy talk is going to change that. You can say all you like that there was "nothing intrinsically" male about my body, but it still wasn't the sort of body I needed. That is, we're just involved in semantics here. Avoid calling it "male", if you like, it was still what it was. "A rose by any other name", you know.
It’s like this: in order to be happy, I need to live female (and yes, you can argue all you like what “female” means). The question for cispeople is, are they going to try and prevent me from doing that? Decent cispeople won’t, nasty ones will.
How do I answer someone who says, “You’re biologically male, therefore you have to live male”? I say, “Why call me male? My soul is female. Why not call me female? Why does the body take precedence over the soul? Why can you see nothing but the body? Why is that the only thing we take into account when we define/classify people? There’s much more to us than our bodies. And why do I automatically have to live according to my body? Why can't I live according to my soul if that makes me happier?”
That is for me, sex and gender are objective realities. The writer of this article wants to call them social constructs. And at the end of the day, I can’t see that her strategy helps matters. Trans-haters are trans-haters, and they don’t care about any of this theoretical stuff. They don’t care what we say. They’re going to hate and oppose us anyway. Whereas decent people aren’t going to oppose us. Why not just call a spade a spade, since that’s not going to lead them to oppose us anyway?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2015 2:41:47 GMT 8
OK so these are just some of my experiences and only pertain to me. Growing up it was a little different but during adulthood there were some changes in the way people act and react to me. Children are mean especialy the preteens up unitl 21-25 years of age. Yes when I was growing up going through school I was an outcast. I just happened to play in a band so I could be an outcast and still be somewhat popular for the sake of people wanting to go to practice sessions that usually got smoked out or enough alcohol to float a supertanker. This little gem will make a total blitthering idiot a somewhat popular person but seing how it is kids it was the alcohol and the smoke not to mention the party atmosphere and so on. So I suffered in silence but not nearly as bad as some of us have had to endure. And I could get away with quite a bit. But this isn't my point.
My point being if it wasn't for my little hobby back then I would have been shunned and considered not normal even for the early to mid eighties. Who remembers the band Flock of Seagulls and the dude's hairstyle? I wouldn't be caught dead with it. It reminds me of the Whos in the Grinch movie. Remember I grew up with this and came to terms early. It was that or face my demise and life is just too interesting and sometimes fun to end it prematurely even though it sux sometimes.
When I was 18 and started moving out on my own in the world I started noticing that people aver a certain age and usually in the mid 20s were treating me differently. I mean women wanted to be my friends and trusted me way more than most women would trust a guy my age when it came to their vulnerabilities and secrets. They would tell me shit they would tell other women. Oh yeah I had long hair and was a little primadonna like but still percieved as a guy, not a gay guy either. Yeah I was invited out on girl's nights. Not as a chapperone or protector but just as another friend. Guys would seem to sort of help me out a little more than they would other guys and almost sometimes borderline flirt or so it seemed. It seemed that guys that would trash their other friends wouldn't trash me nearly as bad. I would even push them too but it never seemed to get them to attack me like any other guy.
OK so what the hell is it about me that women treat me more like another woman even in guy mode and guys tend to treat me like woman even in guy mode? I mean when I was driving still and pull up in a flatbed some of the workers that would unload my truck would take the time to help me roll my straps and so on. Other drivers that were guys were pretty much on their own until I came to help them because I had help sometimes from 2 or 3 of the dock workers. I swear there even seemed to be a little borderline flirting going on too. I mean I wasn't going out of my way to present as female. It is kind of hard to when you have to wear steel toes, long jeans, and Tshirts at least. Oh yeah some guys would avoid me like the plague but some really seemed interested. Some women didn't care for me either but not as an ugly or wierd guy but like they would another woman they didn't care for.
So this leads me to wonder, is it something in my personality that they are picking up on and are drawn to that gender even if they aren't even aware of it. It seems like they really aren't that aware of it. Oh some are that are brave and secure enough but for the most part I think it is something more in the subconscious. It could be pheromones that possibly we put out and people pick up on these. I never could understand it though. I never got treated like a guy and not totally like a woman either. To this day, it is still a mystery to me. Even driving over the road and not the oilfield a lot of drivers, shippers and recievers were a lot nicer to me than other male drivers. So is it my personality? Possibly. Is it my friendliness? Possibly. Just like I right on this forum, I have a big mouth in person and my word usage is more in line with female on a daily basis than male. Or is it something that they are picking up on that I am not trying to deny but cooul hide really well. Something subconscious that they are subconsciously piking up on and are drawn too. maybe if I dressed feminine it would have been way too much and that may overide the subltle subconsious messages. I'm not saying that this is what it is but it is strange that I am bi and like guys and the women that I have been drawn too throughout my life have been strong dominate women. More like a guy than me even if they couldn't see it themselves.
Again just my thoughts and opinions but I think there are way more trans people than not. I just don't think they really understand themselves because it is deeply embedded but, I have dated some women that were more masculine in personality than I am. These have been the most memorable relationships that I can remember. Oh and the guys too. The relationship with guys feel more normal and comfortable because I can be a crybaby, scaredy cat and so on.
Like i said these are just some of my observations.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Oct 3, 2015 9:25:23 GMT 8
For some, the matrix and believing in it will always be their reality.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Oct 3, 2015 13:00:52 GMT 8
For some, the matrix and believing in it will always be their reality. Ignorance is bliss. I was watching Gotham the other day and Jerome (playing the young Joker) said this, "You're all prisoners. What you call sanity, it's just a prison in your minds that stops you from seeing that you're just little tiny cogs in a giant absurd machine. Wake up! Why be a cog? Be free like us."(It highlighted my "theory" I had that I never got around to posting in Mental Health... hmm.) Pretty sure Morpheus said something about cogs in The Matrix, never got around to finishing my re-watch of it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 13:28:45 GMT 8
Just finished a wonderful nb and ts aa meeting and then ditched the underwire and went stealth to extended family.
They had 70s rock vids on and the fingers pointing and the joking about the guys was sickening.
I have no respect for them. My comments about the art and social norms of the time were jeered at. If your hair covers your ears its not manly.
Pthah..
And the kids, not mine, were enforcing the girls dont do stuff.
I have never heard so much bullshit in my life. And im sitting there ringed and polished but they had the good sense not to challenge it. They asked about the beard and i said i was tired of looking like an old man. Went right over there blind heads.
Bigotry. Idiocy born of a matrix enforced with cruelty. Built out of pride and superiority based on an illusion.
I wore nothing girl but a sweater and black feather earing at my meeting tonight. I had three people tell me i was beautiful and i wasnt being female. I was just letting all my fear and stress out and my body language is what it is.
You know what read?
It was bloody real. No mask no veil no act and no bullshit. Just me. Not even trans, just trinity. No voice mods no makeup.
And thats the point. Either its real or its bullshit and im not letting bigots dab theirs on me. Im gender nonconforming cause its real and what they enforce is nothing more than a competition to be better than someone else.
Then i grabbed a train and a transgirl that reads totally and naturally girl talked with me about booze and god and trans. Shes real, im real, the guys are real and the queers are real.
Thats what i want. Real. Not bullshit.
Trinity
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Post by EchelonHunt on Oct 3, 2015 14:13:46 GMT 8
That's important, Trinity. To be real, authentic, to live your truth and freedom of who you are.
Be yourself. Be free. That is what I intend to do, one baby step at a time.
Bigotry will always exist in the hearts of those who fear what they cannot understand.
Guide them, if they do not wish to be guided, leave them be. It's up to them to decide if they wish to progress forward.
We cannot change others, all we can do is change how we react to them.
We all have our own truths and realities, they may not line up perfectly, we may disagree but we wouldn't have the diversity of the forum we have now if we were all the one and the same.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 1:32:38 GMT 8
Just finished a wonderful nb and ts aa meeting and then ditched the underwire and went stealth to extended family. They had 70s rock vids on and the fingers pointing and the joking about the guys was sickening. I have no respect for them. My comments about the art and social norms of the time were jeered at. If your hair covers your ears its not manly.
Pthah.. And the kids, not mine, were enforcing the girls dont do stuff. I have never heard so much bullshit in my life. And im sitting there ringed and polished but they had the good sense not to challenge it. They asked about the beard and i said i was tired of looking like an old man. Went right over there blind heads. Bigotry. Idiocy born of a matrix enforced with cruelty. Built out of pride and superiority based on an illusion. I wore nothing girl but a sweater and black feather earing at my meeting tonight. I had three people tell me i was beautiful and i wasnt being female. I was just letting all my fear and stress out and my body language is what it is. You know what read? It was bloody real. No mask no veil no act and no bullshit. Just me. Not even trans, just trinity. No voice mods no makeup. And thats the point. Either its real or its bullshit and im not letting bigots dab theirs on me. Im gender nonconforming cause its real and what they enforce is nothing more than a competition to be better than someone else. Then i grabbed a train and a transgirl that reads totally and naturally girl talked with me about booze and god and trans. Shes real, im real, the guys are real and the queers are real. Thats what i want. Real. Not bullshit. Trinity Ughh. If they go back in time they would find that men had long hair more often than not. Then the romans came in with the bowl cuts for men. William Wallace had long hair. The Barbarians had long hair. The Knights had long hair because they could put it in a topknot to cushion there head from the armor headgear they wore. The slaves in most cultures had shaved or short hair. Rockers wear long hair usually to show their rebellion. The 60's and 70's was about a rebellious nature but the hippy movement got tied into it. The 80's if you had long hair you wer not a team player or a rebel or non conformist. That gave us the freakin' mullet. Business in the front and party in the back.(puke) Hell even Jesus had long hair if you believe in the Shroud of Turin. How do people explain that? I don't care about hairstyles. If you want long hair man or woman then grow it. You want short hair man or woman then cut it. But judgememnt against the way someone wears their hair is petty and rediculous. Albert Einstien was a genius and he had wild ass hair. If he tried to get a job at a corporation today chances are they would look right over him. How is that for Irony.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 9:18:13 GMT 8
Sorry but no. The parallel to me is very real.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Oct 5, 2015 2:20:26 GMT 8
What we refer to as the matrix is very real, and you can choose to ignore that. But that's not freedom, that's the illusion of freedom.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 2:42:31 GMT 8
We have choices in how we view perspectives.
Thank you Star for the edit. Out of context my last comment was directed at her request to refrain from using the analogy to the matrix.
I respect that withdrawl and edit.
Under this much pressure and this much of an unexpected hormone spike i will be careful what i say.
And Star has the same thing going on.
We choose what we believe and what we think is true.
Is it hypocritical i am hardwired girl in many ways yet its a physical and emotional thing easily hidden among the society peeps around me? That the rest of me knows it is simply not true for me to think i am female or part of female culture?
I am not. I am independent of all of it. Yet i must have my correct body for my needs.
Others may be different from me here. Not for me to say. But the world system in place in my generation cannot possibly understand it.
I once saw through it very young, then got trapped in it by the gender enforcers.
It was destructive.
So context restored. I dont care what others believe. But i say what works for me because it may help another person, and thats worth it.
Back to work.....settling down. Boss gave me a compliment and thats both rare and validating. What i dont have in skill i can overcome in determination and integrity. And that might save my ass.
But thats off topic. And my gender will be cloaked here for my own preservation.
Because in the construct of this business it is irrelevant and unsafe.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 2:25:43 GMT 8
I tend to agree with Star. I also tend to agree with Ativan. This Matrix is self made. It is the social construct. You can either choose to accept it or deny it. Ugh. Fads when people wear the same hairstyle, anyone remember the "Rachel" from the Friends sitcom? What about the mullet, half rebel and half conformist? What about clothing and styles? we are bombarded psycholgically with advertisements that are targeted to the human subconscious.
So if the Matrix is a social construct and gender is a social construct then we are breaking through even as I write this. More and more people are becoming gender non conforming regarding classic gender roles whether they are aware of it or not.
But the matrix I don't believe is real. I do however believe that there is a self imposed psychological, subconscious prison that most people believe is the real world. Sort of like on Star Trek, The next Generation and the Holodecks. Shit seems real It will seem like real life until the program goes haywire. But this is not a program from a computer but from the human mind. So the Holodeck is nothing but a small room with visionary stimuli and auditory stimuli and can seem real. But it is nothing but a box that will keep you imprisoned until you expand your own mental awareness.
Hell I don't belong. I don't really want to belong. I want to be on the outer perimeters. I want to be friends with the freaks, geeks, nerds and other misfits. I don't want to live in a neat little box. I want the chaos. I want to experience the oddities of life instead of white picket fences and a nice house with 2 1/2 children and a dog with a bachelor's degree and a mate with a bachelor's degree. Working for a retirement that may never come and so on. BTW where the hell do they get 2 1/2 children from statistically? 1/2 a child really? That sound kind of gory. And they call us strange. This will tell you what kind of people we are dealing with when it comes to the Matrix or the World or Society or anything else. Statistics do not impress me. I am not a statistic. I am free to choose. Like Star said. I have freedom to be me. But also like Ativan said I may be shunned by the "Matrix" or society. So where do I want to live. Ignorant bliss or flip society the bird and yell at the top of my lungs, "YOU CANNOT CONTROL ME SO KISS MY ASS". HMMM. I wonder if anyone can guess what I will choose.
Society sux but it is getting a lot less suckier and we are gaining momentum and hopefully that momentum will be kept in a good light.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 2:42:06 GMT 8
We have choices in how we view perspectives. Thank you Star for the edit. Out of context my last comment was directed at her request to refrain from using the analogy to the matrix. I respect that withdrawl and edit. Under this much pressure and this much of an unexpected hormone spike i will be careful what i say. And Star has the same thing going on. We choose what we believe and what we think is true.
Is it hypocritical i am hardwired girl in many ways yet its a physical and emotional thing easily hidden among the society peeps around me? That the rest of me knows it is simply not true for me to think i am female or part of female culture? I am not. I am independent of all of it. Yet i must have my correct body for my needs. Others may be different from me here. Not for me to say. But the world system in place in my generation cannot possibly understand it. I once saw through it very young, then got trapped in it by the gender enforcers. It was destructive. So context restored. I dont care what others believe. But i say what works for me because it may help another person, and thats worth it. Back to work.....settling down. Boss gave me a compliment and thats both rare and validating. What i dont have in skill i can overcome in determination and integrity. And that might save my ass. But thats off topic. And my gender will be cloaked here for my own preservation. Because in the construct of this business it is irrelevant and unsafe. I wish star would not have edited the post. Everyone is different Trinity. The only thing true in life is who we are to ourselves. We can wear all kinds of masks but to our ownselves be true. I saw through it at a very young age too. I took steps to be able to express my gender iedentity in a somewhat sort of way. When they didn't pan out then I spent four long years in hell, well not really but had to be extrememly careful. I won't go into that too much though. Then I worked a job that I could be totally me for 98 percent of the time. Wearing what I wanted and so on. Because 98 percent of that time I was working alone. Plus I could have long hair and dress code was not an issue. By all means I did wear jeans or shorts and Tshirts loading and unlaoding even hairless legs. Most will never notice. Those that do or did never said anything. If so then screw it. If someone looks that close then they may be a wee bit attracted to something than what they thought. Or are aware of. We all have to do what we have to do. If we have to bury ourselves then so be it. You still have my love and respect. If you can live openly then so be it. You have my love a respect too. If you have to push it in order to be comfortable with yourself and still hide it. You still have my love and respect. We all have to do what we have to do according to life circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2015 0:02:36 GMT 8
The thread ran its course but I am putting this up for context.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2015 0:04:12 GMT 8
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Post by Taka on Oct 14, 2015 23:01:08 GMT 8
both sex and gender are biological phenomenons. it's expressed in charyotype, reproductive organs, brain structure. we can't escape it, and there is no reason why we should.
gender roles, gendered behavior, gender expectations, and all those are social constructs however.
if gender was a purely social construct, there would be no need for nb folks to take hormones just to feel right. i wouldn't feel as awkward about my chest. if gender wasn't real, i should at least be able to feel completely comfortable without medical treatment. particularly since i plan to get treatment without any plans of some sort of social transition.
we are all just people, until a woman get hormonal migrains and stomach cramps, and chooses to live with it because her female fertility is that important a part of her personal identity (society doesn't care abouther fertility after all).
and if we try to abolish gender to treat everybody the same, all women who choose to bear a child would lose their job. but do you think such a system would stop women from getting pregnant? most likely not, and mostly because bearing their own child is most women's dream, important enough to be willing to sacrifice career, health, or even their own life, for it.
i wonder how many men would do the same, if they had the ability to get pregnant. some trans men do get their own kids, but would they make that choice if they were guaranteed to lose their job for at least the next 3 years, and having to start at the bottom again afterwards?
would also be interesting to how many of the women who grow up as boys in muslim countries would want to change their sex to male upon reaching adulhood, if they could get it easily and for free. i think a whole lot of them would rather choose to fight for women's rights as a woman, because that's their real gender despite male socialization.
gender isn't visible on the outside though, and this is important to remember when meeting and talking about people.
actually, ifgender was a social construct, socialization would work. wouldn't it? aren't we all members of society?
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