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Post by Edge on Feb 26, 2015 0:15:52 GMT 8
But then, I also have a problem with talking to a lot of trans men. I seem to have nothing in common with them aside from being trans. That and it's kind of annoying when asking for advice turns into "Oh well I never needed that advice because I just do this stuff naturally" and then it turns into some trannier than thou thing. God, it's so annoying when that happens.
I had one transguy IRL hate me with such a fiery passion because I had feminine mannerisms/behaviors and that, in his eyes, I wasn't "naturally masculine" like he was. And by naturally masculine, it meant I had to be heterosexual, misogynistic, homophobic asshole... which mind you, isn't far off from a close-m Australian male. He never outright spoke these words to my face, but oh, he certainly was vocal about me behind my back. What a coward.
The only great thing about spending a night with that loser was that I got to meet his other transguy friend. He was actually nice, friendly, didn't mind that I was Pre-T when we hung out (It really bothered the first transguy MAJORLY) and best of all, he doesn't judge me based on my mannerisms. Such an awesome guy, I'm still friends with him to this day! "Naturally masculine." What does that even mean? I'm glad you met a cool guy though. There's kind a lose-lose situation for me. I'm pretty masculine, but in the ways people don't like (I'm naturally aggressive no matter what my gender is and have been since childhood) and am also what is often considered feminine in other ways. So the "I just magically know all the social rules" people see me less masculine than them while the effeminate guys seem to see me as too masculine to relate to. At least the latter and I are nicer to each other. Oh I forgot to mention that I've also had trans women dismiss me because I'm a man and "wouldn't understand," "how like a man," etc. I've even gotten outright hostility from a trans woman because she hated men. For that matter, I also have trouble sometimes with non-binary people. Less trouble than with others though, so that's good. However, I still run into people who think that me thinking my gender might be fluid to mean that I am somehow less masculine, less of a man, that my body dysphoria suddenly disappeared, that I am somehow someone other than who I actually am, etc. Sorry for the rant.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Feb 26, 2015 0:35:31 GMT 8
No need to apologize, it's alright.
I'm just as clueless as you as to what it means haha.
Yeah, I can understand your experiences with hostility.
I know my past won't change, I can't pretend I was born a boy, that I went through first puberty as a boy, I would be deluding myself. My experiences with an intersex female body, even if I am transitioning to male, I still want to hold onto those experiences as personal knowledge. A close friend of mine, a ciswoman who knows about me being trans, had a MTF girlfriend at the time. They were speaking about periods on a FB status. I chimed in and it was like, immediate hostility from the MTF girlfriend. It's like... um, okay... I have personally experienced periods myself and I'm not going to deny that part of my past just because I identify as male now. Maybe I crossed an invisible line somewhere but it was irksome that it was OK for her MTF girlfriend to join the discussion even though she has never experienced a period... and it wasn't OK for me, a transguy who's experienced years of periods to join the conversation.
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Post by Edge on Feb 26, 2015 1:03:08 GMT 8
I've had that problem too. People told me I couldn't talk about subjects I have personal experience with even though they didn't.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 2:11:54 GMT 8
What a rush! Sh'e said to her tiny cell phone computer that changes words to their opposites at will.
Lol never trust a smart phone.
Or me on THC downswing.
Derail, distract....lol
Look at all the diversity on this lovely thread!
I feel honored when an ftm or Nonbinary ftm comments. I adore that.
I get real answers and real relevant truth from all the nbs, all the ftm, all the mtf, on this specific board!
Why?
Respect, care, lack of egos, selflessness, needs...conversational tone, frolicking mid thread...Jamie what the hell did you do to my Christmas tree...
Fun,,and serious. Actual life not theory. Lack of defensiveness. Not taking ourselves so bloody seriously. Having good time, free speech, family, cutting across cultures. A riot!
But I stay in my safe forum, where warriors watch and protect.
I talk on the phone and fall for the ones I talk to, the gentle, loving voices.
As an Nb Mtf, I give weight to other Nb advice. Shit I had so many breakdowns over trans it's not funny. Finally clicking under the blending inside.
Everyone has truth. Many have baggage. All have worth. All need our support.
God how I love this place.
Trinity Satin Joy
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 7:03:51 GMT 8
God, it's so annoying when that happens.
I had one transguy IRL hate me with such a fiery passion because I had feminine mannerisms/behaviors and that, in his eyes, I wasn't "naturally masculine" like he was. And by naturally masculine, it meant I had to be heterosexual, misogynistic, homophobic asshole... which mind you, isn't far off from a close-m Australian male. He never outright spoke these words to my face, but oh, he certainly was vocal about me behind my back. What a coward.
The only great thing about spending a night with that loser was that I got to meet his other transguy friend. He was actually nice, friendly, didn't mind that I was Pre-T when we hung out (It really bothered the first transguy MAJORLY) and best of all, he doesn't judge me based on my mannerisms. Such an awesome guy, I'm still friends with him to this day! "Naturally masculine." What does that even mean? I'm glad you met a cool guy though. There's kind a lose-lose situation for me. I'm pretty masculine, but in the ways people don't like (I'm naturally aggressive no matter what my gender is and have been since childhood) and am also what is often considered feminine in other ways. So the "I just magically know all the social rules" people see me less masculine than them while the effeminate guys seem to see me as too masculine to relate to. At least the latter and I are nicer to each other. Oh I forgot to mention that I've also had trans women dismiss me because I'm a man and "wouldn't understand," "how like a man," etc. I've even gotten outright hostility from a trans woman because she hated men. For that matter, I also have trouble sometimes with non-binary people. Less trouble than with others though, so that's good. However, I still run into people who think that me thinking my gender might be fluid to mean that I am somehow less masculine, less of a man, that my body dysphoria suddenly disappeared, that I am somehow someone other than who I actually am, etc. Sorry for the rant. Ya know.... I just don't get why people seem to want to f... things up for other people and not listen to truth, experience and wisdom.
I mean, are they so invested in their illusions that they just cant stand others that see through the mist into the soul, heart, minds, strengths, and have much to offer?
Most likely Edge, most likely. They want the matrix, they cant handle getting unplugged.
Trinity
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 9:08:44 GMT 8
I don't discuss being trans with people irl for a reason. And no one seems inclined to really offer advice irl either. I like it like that. I do know what y'all mean about how many mtf are and how aggressive they can get and that is disappointing when they do that, it just puts another thing out there that so many people think we all do because they see so much of it. Just like I have been told that I am not like other transwomen someone might have seen as I have a good attitude and am nice to everyone whereas the ones they have run into seem to just have a generally bad attitude towards everyone and that's not good for anyone.
I get that about you and I feel pretty much the same!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 9:10:59 GMT 8
I've had that problem too. People told me I couldn't talk about subjects I have personal experience with even though they didn't. I hope you know how to use that middle finger Victor, because that's all they deserve as you are walking away.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 11:19:48 GMT 8
Rally Jayce and Edge? You can offend me all ya'll want too. I don't care and ya'll shouldn't either. I hate to say this but fuck them. Ya'll are more masculine than most men I have met. Real not the fake BS. So deal with that you two. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6045118/images/1Sm_kHqwVMb4Fd3RhozH.gif) But masculinity is much like femininity is more or less a stereotype which isn't a bad thing but not a good thing either. Just sort of like a beacon to follow. If you stray from the straight and narrow ,who cares? You are you and both of you are special. Both of you are unique and there is only one of each of you and I am flattered to know each one of you.
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Post by Taka on Feb 27, 2015 0:33:36 GMT 8
there is masculinity, and there is manliness. manliness is all a man needs to be attractive. that is a state of being, not empty mannerism.
doing anything at all to prove or show off masculinity is super unmanly too.
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Post by Edge on Feb 27, 2015 1:04:53 GMT 8
Thanks, Jamie, Shan, and Trinity. Sorry, but to me, calling masculinity "empty mannerism" insults masculine people. Which, considering that everyone has some masculine traits to some degree, is everyone. There's so much pressure to be one thing OR another thing. Why is it so difficult for people to wrap their heads around the concept of being all the things? It's not like it's hard. Especially since they're arbitrary traits that everyone has to some degree or another.
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Post by Taka on Feb 27, 2015 1:32:38 GMT 8
actually, i'm probably talking about pretended masculinity. i find it just as fake and empty as pretended femininity. i can pretend either, but it doesn't hold any meaning to me at all.
but those who have the traits naturally are different. it's fascinating to see when someone just makes those movements naturally, withouthaving to think about it.
i'm not trying to insult anyone. i don't even think i'm trying to i sult those who try so hard to learn mannerism that is unnatural to them. actors can be nice to watch even knowing it's studied mannerim. evrerybody has a right to try to be someone else, or play a role, whatever reason it's for.
but masculine or feminine traits don't seem to make anyone more or less manly or womanly in my eyes.
i wonder why i called it empty. maybe i meant something other than what it reads as. it seems i don't have the right words for it right now. sorry for sounding spiteful.
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Post by Edge on Feb 27, 2015 1:54:04 GMT 8
actually, i'm probably talking about pretended masculinity. i find it just as fake and empty as pretended femininity. i can pretend either, but it doesn't hold any meaning to me at all. Ah that makes sense. Sorry for being defensive. I'm used to people claiming that all masculine (or feminine) mannerisms are pretend and on purpose.
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Post by Taka on Feb 27, 2015 2:09:41 GMT 8
ah, good. so it is possible to understand my half thoughts...
i remembered why i called it empty. it's because some people think that taking on certain mannerisms will make them more manly or womanly or something. that's when it becomes empty, because there is nothing of the real person in it, and it doesn't add any real qualities.
it's good that you make me explain myself. there are so many thoughts that escape me in the moment i write only the conclusion. and you're right, it does sound insulting sometimes.
i wish this were a science. then i could talk with science words and people would understand...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 2:53:02 GMT 8
I shied away from saying this because I didn't want to offend anyone, but it seems like I'm not alone in feeling this way. I feel very uncomfortable around a lot of trans women. Not all, but many. For example, I'm more likely to feel comfortable around my friend who talks with me about regular stuff and treats me like an equal. A lot of the time I talk to trans women in real life, they talk down to me a lot and dismiss most of what I say. There is also the thing about not taking their cues on how women act from people who have lived as women. I don't mean to say that there's any right way to be a woman, but many of the trans women I've talked to seem convinced that how they act is how cis women act and they judge other trans women for not acting like them because of this. In reality, I've never met any cis women who act like these women do. There may be some things in common between a few people, but mostly, it's off. (Disclaimer: I am not talking about trans women in general or anyone here.) But then, I also have a problem with talking to a lot of trans men. I seem to have nothing in common with them aside from being trans. That and it's kind of annoying when asking for advice turns into "Oh well I never needed that advice because I just do this stuff naturally" and then it turns into some trannier than thou thing. There's nothing offensive about your honest opinion, I've often had wtf moments when my cis spouse graciously made a suggestion to help a trans woman become more successful in her presentation and mannerisms just to have it dismissed as if she didn't know what she was talking about. As a rather biased observer it really left me feeling angry that anyone would be so stupid as to pass up on a few helpful hints from someone I care so much for and who obviously knows what she's talking about. And they wonder why they are often ridiculed and openly disliked!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 4:23:34 GMT 8
I shied away from saying this because I didn't want to offend anyone, but it seems like I'm not alone in feeling this way. I feel very uncomfortable around a lot of trans women. Not all, but many. For example, I'm more likely to feel comfortable around my friend who talks with me about regular stuff and treats me like an equal. A lot of the time I talk to trans women in real life, they talk down to me a lot and dismiss most of what I say. There is also the thing about not taking their cues on how women act from people who have lived as women. I don't mean to say that there's any right way to be a woman, but many of the trans women I've talked to seem convinced that how they act is how cis women act and they judge other trans women for not acting like them because of this. In reality, I've never met any cis women who act like these women do. There may be some things in common between a few people, but mostly, it's off. (Disclaimer: I am not talking about trans women in general or anyone here.) But then, I also have a problem with talking to a lot of trans men. I seem to have nothing in common with them aside from being trans. That and it's kind of annoying when asking for advice turns into " Oh well I never needed that advice because I just do this stuff naturally" and then it turns into some trannier than thou thing. You really shouldn't feel uncomfortable around anyone, trans or cis male or female. Most people have a superiority complex and unfortunately come across as seeming feeling superior to everyone else. Oh yeah though, being trans is probably the biggest thing that is actually going on in our lives and minds. I mean let's face it. For me it is the big pink elephant in the padded cell. For example, you and I probably don't have a whole lot in common except maybe some music, some foods and so on but we are both trans. Even that we don't have in common because we are on different ends of the spectrum but no one should talk down to you or dismiss what you have to say. You have your experiences and I have mine and neither one is better or worst than the other's. So don't let anyone talk down to you. Oh god I really hate when people do that sort of thing. Ahh, bullshit. We all had to learn to act feminine or masculine. But even cis girls and boys learn from male or female role models so it is a learned thing. Yeah when it comes to psychology and emotions and just general thinking, yeah it is pretty natural to your gender identification but learning to walk and talk and socialize and so, we just pretty much had to learn either by watching or asking someone or researching it so don't let all that get to you. I never really needed any advice because I learned from watching, having different female role models, practicing and reading. But the only thing that came natural was my Psychological makeup, emotions and thinking. I absolutely hate the whole "trannier than thou" thing too. This why I deleted my account at the other place as soon as I got unbanned. When that attitude is displayed we really lose a lot of opportunities of learning from one another. But don't let those people get to you Edge. If so just show them that infamous Edge attitude you display on the forums. That bad ass attitude will scare the crap out of them. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6045118/images/1Sm_kHqwVMb4Fd3RhozH.gif)
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