how trusting are you of trans advice?

[DriftingCrow]

Feb 23, 2015 23:54:47 GMT 8 ThePhoenix said:

What I find about myself is that I usually relate best to cis women. 

The next group I feel most comfortable with is female assigned trans* people. It's unfortunate and I feel bad about that because I think the reason I like them has a lot to do with the female socialization and upbringing. 

I think that the big difference I notice with mtf persons is that they don't seem to spend much time around women before transitioning except in sexually charged situations--dating, etc. EchelonHunt and Taka seem to be both getting at the fact that there are many ways to be a woman. True. There is an enormous range of possibilities in how to be a woman (or a man). But most mtf spectrum persons don't seem to be exposed to that range of possibilities because they have little real exposure to what women are really like. Even after transition, it seems like many of them stay very uncomfortable with actually being around women. To quote one trans woman that I advised to spend time around women, "but what if I'm attracted to them?"

Ftm persons seem to have a bit better exposure to men, which makes sense because if you are a woman in the world, you have to pay attention to men in ways that men don't necessarily have to pay attention to women.

I am further de-railing too I guess. . . 

I find the same thing, that I tend to connect more with either other NBs and/or FTMs, as well as cis-women. I do have a lot of MTFs as close friends in the trans community, but not as much as those in between or FTMs. I think part of it is what you or others alluded too, that there's a certain amount of trying to fit into a stereotype of what they believe women are, or trying to overcompensate in order to help pass better. Me and most cis-women I know tend to shy away from a lot of super-girly girls, and it seems like quite a few people early in transition to female go super girly. I think part of that is just finally feeling free in doing girly things, and also not knowing exactly how much things like wearing certain colors, clothes, etc. is appropriate for grown women in our society. Part of this is a learning curve.

I also find it sometimes very hard to have discussions with trans women about things like living as a woman in society, feminism, and interactions with men. I feel like my opinion is discounted since I don't fully identify as a women, so I am seen as a lesser female. (On topic: my advice to trans women isn't often trusted by them since I am not seen as a women and my experiences as someone who's FAAB are discounted). I remember not long ago having a discussion with some older trans women about a feminist topic, I was the only FAAB there, and I basically just had to stop (and apologize) since I think I was unintentionally offending everyone with my views. Part of this is certainly my own problem here, since sometimes I find it hard to grasp how some trans women I encounter can only be out of the closet for a very brief period of time and suddenly seem to feel like they're the feminist of the year; and discuss their limited experiences as a women in society as if they understand being female better than I do. On the other hand, I've also seen some very disturbing comments (from my opinion as someone who's lived my entirely life being sexually harassed) from others stating about how excited they were to get their first catcall, butt pinch, stalker, etc. 

Anyways, I tend to be friends with people whom I have things in common with and with whom I respect; and I also really only follow advice from those whom I respect and trust. All the MTF women friends I have, I respect and have stuff in common with besides just being under the trans*-umbrella -- I would follow their advice. 

[EchelonHunt]

Thank you Trinity for creating this thread. It is an absolute treat to read everyone's replies as it is insightful.

[ThePhoenix]

Feb 24, 2015 8:44:47 GMT 8 DriftingCrow said:

I am further de-railing too I guess. . . 

I find the same thing, that I tend to connect more with either other NBs and/or FTMs, as well as cis-women. I do have a lot of MTFs as close friends in the trans community, but not as much as those in between or FTMs. I think part of it is what you or others alluded too, that there's a certain amount of trying to fit into a stereotype of what they believe women are, or trying to overcompensate in order to help pass better. Me and most cis-women I know tend to shy away from a lot of super-girly girls, and it seems like quite a few people early in transition to female go super girly. I think part of that is just finally feeling free in doing girly things, and also not knowing exactly how much things like wearing certain colors, clothes, etc. is appropriate for grown women in our society. Part of this is a learning curve.

Yes, but wouldn't the learning curve be made a whole lot easier by being around women?  By being willing to learn about womanhood from women instead of the blind leading the blind?

To me it seems like a bit of misogyny to be unwilling to do that.  And most trans women seem to have that type of misogyny.  

And unfortunately, any discussion of this is quickly made impossible by the defensive ones . . . .

And I can't figure out how to insert another quotation but this is also from DriftingCrow:

I also find it sometimes very hard to have discussions with trans women about things like living as a woman in society, feminism, and interactions with men. I feel like my opinion is discounted since I don't fully identify as a women, so I am seen as a lesser female. (On topic: my advice to trans women isn't often trusted by them since I am not seen as a women and my experiences as someone who's FAAB are discounted). I remember not long ago having a discussion with some older trans women about a feminist topic, I was the only FAAB there, and I basically just had to stop (and apologize) since I think I was unintentionally offending everyone with my views. Part of this is certainly my own problem here, since sometimes I find it hard to grasp how some trans women I encounter can only be out of the closet for a very brief period of time and suddenly seem to feel like they're the feminist of the year; and discuss their limited experiences as a women in society as if they understand being female better than I do. On the other hand, I've also seen some very disturbing comments (from my opinion as someone who's lived my entirely life being sexually harassed) from others stating about how excited they were to get their first catcall, butt pinch, stalker, etc.

And this is me responding:  

In the old place FA once started a topic called the "assigned female perspective" or something like it. I was astonished at how it seemed to line up with the FTMs (and, ummm, me) talking about how so many MTFs seem to be less like women and more like parodies of women.  The amount of dismissing and hostility was exactly like you are describing.  I know FA eventually got so battered that he ended up apologizing.  I think he may have ended up deleting the entire topic.  I found the hostility from the MTFs to remind me of some sort of misogynitsic type thing (I don't know the right word here).  And really, he wasn't saying there was anything wrong with it.  He was just saying that it is not the same as being just another girl.  And it isn't.  Trans women are (mostly) very different from cis women.  

I've been criticized by trans women for being "too much like a woman."  What does that even mean that a woman can be criticized for being too much like a woman?  Isn't that criticism itself inherently kind of misogynistic?  

And for me it becomes kind of a chellenge that I've never figured out how to deal with.  Trans women are supposedly the people who are like me.  But yet why do they make me feel so alien?  This is something I've been struggling with for years now.  And I can't even talk about it because it makes the MTFs defensive!  Bleh.

[Luna]

Advice is only as good as the one giving it and receiving it.
I'll listen to someone who has weight behind their position, but whether I'd actually follow through is another matter altogether.

[Ativan Prescribed]

Unless I ask a question that demands a specific answer, as in there are a couple or maybe more choices, and I ask advice about which one they think is best, it comes down to more of seeking direction.
Even something simple usually has no one answer, the best advice I ever find is that from more than just one perspective, and even then, I have to put that into my own perspective.
Living your life based on how others have done it, is living their lives.
Living your life based on the possibilities that others have chosen and described as it is for them, is better.
Listening and being mindful of your own life and considering what others may or may not do in a similar situation, is better still.
Advice that consists of turn left or right usually never takes into consideration that there are many lefts and rights, unless it is advice given as a general direction.
Advice I give that sounds too specific, probably is and is given that way because I lack the ability to express it in another way at the time.
Taken as an absolute in any way is disappointing for me, I realize the inability that I have in expressing it.
Sometimes I learn more by finding a better way to say something than I did as I experienced it to begin with.
And that is how I take others experiences and advice as well, it is the best they can express at the time.
Advice is simply relating an experience, the better understood, often the better the advice will be, it will have direction, rather than an absolute of some kind.
Just as things I have said have changed over time, I expect theirs will too and take that into consideration.
It kinda comes down to taking what is relevant, either way, and considering it as such if it seems to fit.
To try and fit myself, or expect someone to else to fit the advice is not considering what it is they have said or asked at the time.
That is trying to fit yourself into their life experiences and expecting the same results.
It is only relevant as much as it is then, it could be much different down the road, it could be more important then or not.
It isn't so much of considering the source, as it is to consider the relevance and where in time it comes from, as well as when it is given.
What was good advice then, may not have that much relevance today, but it might further along in the journey, or it might have nothing to do with it at all.
So it isn't so much an issue of trust as it is of relevance and each of ours is different.

[Deleted]

Feb 24, 2015 6:32:59 GMT 8 Trinity said:

Crap we derailed the thread talking about boobs again.

What a riot!

Now, where were we...

Sometimes as it should be conversations lead to other things of substance. This I why I love it here. No whip masters keeping a topic that goes into other areas. Everything morphs and evolves. Especially conversations. I don't really think it was derailed because boob size is important to us MTFs and what others have to say is important. Even those of us that FTM can provide advice just like we can provide advice because we all at one time had to be miserable. That misery did lead to some experience to give some advice to either or.

I mean we can learn form one another. Aren't friends supposed to provide support and advice and teach when we need to learn something? To care enough to provide advice and experience to help one another?

[Ativan Prescribed]

It's in those tangents of thought that we express our experiences in unsolicited ways.
It's some of the best ways we learn from each other, it's innocent in it's giving.

[Deleted]

I'm inclined to view DriftingCrow's comments as a pretty astute prospective. From my observations over the years, many MtF and FtM binaries tend to be rather out of touch with reality for the most part and then feel threatened and turn into alpha dogs when offered helpful advice from a cis person and continue to cling to their delusional ideas.

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2015 3:22:55 GMT 8 Ativan Prescribed said:

It's in those tangents of thought that we express our experiences in unsolicited ways.
It's some of the best ways we learn from each other, it's innocent in it's giving.

Sometimes things just need to evolve. That is the best thing about here. There is no one telling you to stay on topic. If someone wants to go back to the original topic then by all means go. Another direction, by all means go. Where it goes, no one knows but it always seems to lead somewhere around here.

BTW who made the law that a topic can't evolve? Stuff from the heart and personal experiences is always priceless tools that we can all use.

[ThePhoenix]

Feb 25, 2015 3:24:56 GMT 8 Shan said:

I'm inclined to view DriftingCrow's comments as a pretty astute prospective. From my observations over the years, many MtF and FtM binaries tend to be rather out of touch with reality for the most part and then feel threatened and turn into alpha dogs when offered helpful advice from a cis person and continue to cling to their delusional ideas.

You know, I hate to say this being that I'm a female identified binary, but I actually agree with you . . . .

When the MtF brush gets pushed on me, I have to admit it makes me cringe.  There are cultural reasons for that.  This is one.  The tendency of so many MtF persons to strongly express themselves as strongly male in other parts of day to day life is another.  It all leaves me with an "ugh, please don't mistake me for one of them feeling."  And I especially don't like it when they insist that I really am one of them, just like them.  So I tend to hang my hat on the intersex issue so I can say no, I'm not biologically male, so therefore I'm not one of them.  

But it it does make me wonder.  Maybe I really am just like them and I'm deluding myself by seeing a difference.  On the other hand, everyone else also seems to see the difference, and I do get that weird criticism I mentioned above.  

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2015 8:55:56 GMT 8 ThePhoenix said:

You know, I hate to say this being that I'm a female identified binary, but I actually agree with you . . . .

When the MtF brush gets pushed on me, I have to admit it makes me cringe.  There are cultural reasons for that.  This is one.  The tendency of so many MtF persons to strongly express themselves as strongly male in other parts of day to day life is another.  It all leaves me with an "ugh, please don't mistake me for one of them feeling."  And I especially don't like it when they insist that I really am one of them, just like them.  So I tend to hang my hat on the intersex issue so I can say no, I'm not biologically male, so therefore I'm not one of them.  

But it it does make me wonder.  Maybe I really am just like them and I'm deluding myself by seeing a difference.  On the other hand, everyone else also seems to see the difference, and I do get that weird criticism I mentioned above.  

I suspect that it's very much a maturity level thing. If we were to consider the manifestation of transgenderism beginning at the point where we come out with it as a rebirth and the emergence of a new creation like the church folks prefer to speak of their spiritual awakening, then we are only as old in the new gender designation from when it commenced, so there is a lot of room for immaturity in adults as they enter into their second puberty. The only problem with someone who gets their nose out of joint and has a tantrum is that they tend to draw on some of the defensive and sometimes very aggressive behavior learned in their former life, and it can be very unbecoming and downright intimidating to some.

[ThePhoenix]

I wish that were it, Shan. I really do.

[Edge]

I shied away from saying this because I didn't want to offend anyone, but it seems like I'm not alone in feeling this way. I feel very uncomfortable around a lot of trans women. Not all, but many. For example, I'm more likely to feel comfortable around my friend who talks with me about regular stuff and treats me like an equal. A lot of the time I talk to trans women in real life, they talk down to me a lot and dismiss most of what I say. There is also the thing about not taking their cues on how women act from people who have lived as women. I don't mean to say that there's any right way to be a woman, but many of the trans women I've talked to seem convinced that how they act is how cis women act and they judge other trans women for not acting like them because of this. In reality, I've never met any cis women who act like these women do. There may be some things in common between a few people, but mostly, it's off.
(Disclaimer: I am not talking about trans women in general or anyone here.)
But then, I also have a problem with talking to a lot of trans men. I seem to have nothing in common with them aside from being trans. That and it's kind of annoying when asking for advice turns into "Oh well I never needed that advice because I just do this stuff naturally" and then it turns into some trannier than thou thing.

[bhhfmm]

I don't discuss being trans with people irl for a reason. And no one seems inclined to really offer advice irl either. I like it like that. I do know what y'all mean about how many mtf are and how aggressive they can get and that is disappointing when they do that, it just puts another thing out there that so many people think we all do because they see so much of it. Just like I have been told that I am not like other transwomen someone might have seen as I have a good attitude and am nice to everyone whereas the ones they have run into seem to just have a generally bad attitude towards everyone and that's not good for anyone.

[EchelonHunt]

Feb 25, 2015 22:26:59 GMT 8 Edge said:

But then, I also have a problem with talking to a lot of trans men. I seem to have nothing in common with them aside from being trans. That and it's kind of annoying when asking for advice turns into "Oh well I never needed that advice because I just do this stuff naturally" and then it turns into some trannier than thou thing.

God, it's so annoying when that happens.

I had one transguy IRL hate me with such a fiery passion because I had feminine mannerisms/behaviors and that, in his eyes, I wasn't "naturally masculine" like he was. And by naturally masculine, it meant I had to be heterosexual, misogynistic, homophobic asshole... which mind you, isn't far off from a close-m Australian male. He never outright spoke these words to my face, but oh, he certainly was vocal about me behind my back. What a coward.

The only great thing about spending a night with that loser was that I got to meet his other transguy friend. He was actually nice, friendly, didn't mind that I was Pre-T when we hung out (It really bothered the first transguy MAJORLY) and best of all, he doesn't judge me based on my mannerisms. Such an awesome guy, I'm still friends with him to this day!