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Post by ThePhoenix on Dec 3, 2014 2:13:27 GMT 8
I will now make a post which would likely have incurred the wrath of the mods at Susans.... If anyone has been born into any binary gender, then with even a short experience of that gender and the socialisation that necessarily follows, how can anyone describe themselves as binary trans. Surely you carry your experience with you even if you choose to reframe and assert a new (non birth) gender identity. If this hypothesis has merit then aren't all trans folk, by definition, therefore non binary? Please don't flame me - just thinking aloud! Safe travels Aisla Well, at risk of repeating a post I actually did recently make at Susan's without any trouble . . . . My personal belief is that nonbinary identities are much more widespread than commonly believed, and probably are a majority of the trans* population. I believe that many trans* people who say they identify within the binary, actually don't, but they don't feel enough familiarity or comfort with the idea of non-binary identity to say that's what they are. Why do I say that? Well, I can't know what's happening inside someone else's head (their gender identity). But I can see how they express what's going on (their gender expression). Binary gender expression seems rare. For example, the sheer number of trans women who say they identify within the binary as women, but they have a huge amount of strongly masculine gender expression. And they're fine with that. And we see trans men who retain an awful lot of feminine gender expression and are fine with that too--although FAAB persons usually seem more willing to embrace a non-binary identity, so you don't see the same number who say they are binary and don't seem that way. That expression seems very nonbinary and does not square with claiming a strictly binary identity. Then there is generational change. Things like genderqueer and non-binary exist in older generations. But they are a whole lot more common in younger ones. Is that because there are more of them among younger generations or is it because younger folks are more familiar with the concept and find it easier to grasp? Well, I doubt that the human race has undergone any fundamental revisions . . . so I tend to think it is more likely that folks are just getting more familiar with the concept and more comfortable saying it. Just my two cents . . . .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 3:26:09 GMT 8
Your thoughts on that subject parallel my own and is what I'm pretty much all about, good post Phoenix!
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Post by Whisper on Dec 3, 2014 10:01:45 GMT 8
wow, i have read so many "differences between Genderqueer and _________" posts in different forums, that i don't even know what to say anymore. my posts about the topic are our there in several places. i will leave this one to the newer generations to debate. i will stick to stuff for older people. hope the discussion goes well! whisper
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 10:31:32 GMT 8
Oh dear. Now what do I do with this, presenting genderqueer socially because I show both binaries, including at work as a construction subcontractor estimator, genderqueer in bed with wife, but blended Nonbinary core, female no op body on heavy hormones, and full female presenting and being at rest.
So the umbrella term Nonbinary fits, but genderqueer fits to, so does nb mtf.
Anyone's head hurting?
But Trinity, Satinjoy that works for me. And I do get a kick out of genderqueer as in your face transgender.
Blessings
Oh, here we go
Nails out, hair down, heart wide open and living free, authentic to the core.
I hope.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 23:46:56 GMT 8
I haven't been banned there as far as I know which is surprising although I haven't logged in there since I left. I do know that my "Goodbye to Susan's" post in the Aaarrgh section of the General Discussion has been removed, must have been too inflammatory! I've felt non binary all my life to varying degrees but just didn't have a name for it or understand what it was.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 1:28:42 GMT 8
I haven't been banned there as far as I know which is surprising although I haven't logged in there since I left. I do know that my "Goodbye to Susan's" post in the Aaarrgh section of the General Discussion has been removed, must have been too inflammatory! I've felt non binary all my life to varying degrees but just didn't have a name for it or understand what it was.You're not banned. FYI goodbye posts are now bannable. She has gone over the authoritarian deep end. May the lord bless and keep her far away from here. Ditto with the bold. Let the other place go my dear sister. Our primary purpose is to help others here, exploring gender, providing support, bringing the love they need to survive. As to what is happening in the other places, we have moved on. It has become a wound, it needs to heal, it is not of our forum. Please feel free to PM me if you disagree or feel hurt or are upset by this. Group conscience of the forum is to move on, put the past behind us, and make this the best forum on the planet, extending our heartfelt love to others, making a difference in their lives, to realize the full potential and power of who they are transgendered. It is a noble cause and worthy of our hearts and minds to follow. Blessings my dear one, from the diamond heart of trans.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 1:28:51 GMT 8
I haven't been banned there as far as I know which is surprising although I haven't logged in there since I left. I do know that my "Goodbye to Susan's" post in the Aaarrgh section of the General Discussion has been removed, must have been too inflammatory! I've felt non binary all my life to varying degrees but just didn't have a name for it or understand what it was.You're not banned. FYI goodbye posts are now bannable. She has gone over the authoritarian deep end. May the lord bless and keep her far away from here. Ditto with the bold. Sometime down the road I'll sign in just long enough to hit the delete button on my account there.
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Post by TessaJames on Dec 4, 2014 1:31:30 GMT 8
Yes, I identify as Queer and consider it an umbrella term that is inclusive of my identity and orientation. Neither of those categories (Bi and Trans) are widely accepted by the straight or even some in the LGBTQ world. Queer gives me a feeling of solidarity with LGBTQ people and is a stand up statement. "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" is a bumper sticker and parade chant slogan that I like.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 1:53:59 GMT 8
Yes, I identify as Queer and consider it an umbrella term that is inclusive of my identity and orientation. Neither of those categories (Bi and Trans) are widely accepted by the straight or even some in the LGBTQ world. Queer gives me a feeling of solidarity with LGBTQ people and is a stand up statement. "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" is a bumper sticker and parade chant slogan that I like. I just never liked the term as it was always used in a derogatory manner in the past. It actually means odd or outside of the norm, which is true of all of us. The word queer just creeps me out on a personal level. I am referred to by others as "eccentric", "a loveably curmudgeonly eccentric" and my spouse has privately referred to me as "Her exotic" when she sees me in my birthday suit. If someone openly referred to me in public as a queer I'd have to kick their ass!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 2:05:06 GMT 8
Yes, I identify as Queer and consider it an umbrella term that is inclusive of my identity and orientation. Neither of those categories (Bi and Trans) are widely accepted by the straight or even some in the LGBTQ world. Queer gives me a feeling of solidarity with LGBTQ people and is a stand up statement. "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" is a bumper sticker and parade chant slogan that I like. I just never liked the term as it was always used in a derogatory manner in the past. It actually means odd or outside of the norm, which is true of all of us. The word queer just creeps me out on a personal level. I am referred to by others as "eccentric", "a loveably curmudgeonly eccentric" and my spouse has privately referred to me as "Her exotic" when she sees me in my birthday suit. If someone openly referred to me in public as a queer I'd have to kick their ass! Same as Shantel on this one, though I present genderqueer. I prefer just flat out transsexual or transgendered person. Queer has gay connotations, and I am not gay. I am trans. But I totally respect others needs to I'd as queer. Blessings Trinity
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Post by TessaJames on Dec 4, 2014 13:08:48 GMT 8
Yes, I identify as Queer and consider it an umbrella term that is inclusive of my identity and orientation. Neither of those categories (Bi and Trans) are widely accepted by the straight or even some in the LGBTQ world. Queer gives me a feeling of solidarity with LGBTQ people and is a stand up statement. "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" is a bumper sticker and parade chant slogan that I like. I just never liked the term as it was always used in a derogatory manner in the past. It actually means odd or outside of the norm, which is true of all of us. The word queer just creeps me out on a personal level. I am referred to by others as "eccentric", "a loveably curmudgeonly eccentric" and my spouse has privately referred to me as "Her exotic" when she sees me in my birthday suit. If someone openly referred to me in public as a queer I'd have to kick their ass! Ha Ha Ha Yes, it's not for everyone and if someone is using Queer in a hurtful way it's on them not me. Inside i say something sarcastic like WoW how did you ever guess and laugh. Out loud i am not looking for any ass kicking for anyone and have managed to avoid any fighting since our days in the jungle of a small SE Asian Country. I'd rather be a lover and recover and yet I also like to be provocative. I want people to question their assumptions of gender and orientation. It feels good to consider new possibilities like we have.
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Post by Sarah on Dec 4, 2014 19:27:51 GMT 8
I will now make a post which would likely have incurred the wrath of the mods at Susans.... If anyone has been born into any binary gender, then with even a short experience of that gender and the socialisation that necessarily follows, how can anyone describe themselves as binary trans. Surely you carry your experience with you even if you choose to reframe and assert a new (non birth) gender identity. If this hypothesis has merit then aren't all trans folk, by definition, therefore non binary? Please don't flame me - just thinking aloud! Safe travels Aisla I'd go even further and posit that the very act of transition itself is inherently non-binary. The Binary (in super intimidating capitals) is a concept that harkens back to traditional Victorian moralistic perceptions of sex and gender. Men are people who identify as men, are manly and masculine, born with a penis, and attracted to women. Women the inverse. There has been a very, very slow deconstruction of that original binary over the last 100 or so years to the point where it is actually possible to persist in Western society without fitting that model and without being stoned to death (probably). But even so ANY violation of that binary is still inevitably going to be punished in some way. Being trans is inherently violating of that binary in one of the most intense ways possible--regardless of how well you identify and blend with target sex/gender. I.e. you can be a traditional transitioner: MAAB, unquestioningly identify as a woman, totally femme, likes dudes, etc. and you've still pissed on the binary cause you transitioned, and some people are still going to want to punish you for that violation. I would never suggest it makes X person any less a woman (that would be screwed up), but it doesn't exactly make 'em binary either. But really it comes down to a pretty old and divisive argument in the LGBT movement as a whole: do we want to delete the binary system entirely or do we just want to alter the parameters so that we can fit it? Reform or revolution? Personally though, I think the difference is overstated. Pull out enough building blocks: attraction, physical form, assigned gender at birth, gender expression... and man/woman will eventually cease to have the overwhelming importance that they are still ascribed.
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Post by Ayla on Dec 4, 2014 19:40:27 GMT 8
I'd go even further and posit that the very act of transition itself is inherently non-binary. The Binary (in super intimidating capitals) is a concept that harkens back to traditional Victorian moralistic perceptions of sex and gender. Men are people who identify as men, are manly and masculine, born with a penis, and attracted to women. Women the inverse. There has been a very, very slow deconstruction of that original binary .... ... Personally though, I think the difference is overstated. Pull out enough building blocks: attraction, physical form, assigned gender at birth, gender expression... and man/woman will eventually cease to have the overwhelming importance that they are still ascribed. Sarah This. Absolutely. I am really almost over the entire gender labelling thing .. folk are so much more than the clumsy and ill fitting labels we assign to each other. Safe travels Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 10:33:15 GMT 8
I will now make a post which would likely have incurred the wrath of the mods at Susans.... If anyone has been born into any binary gender, then with even a short experience of that gender and the socialisation that necessarily follows, how can anyone describe themselves as binary trans. Surely you carry your experience with you even if you choose to reframe and assert a new (non birth) gender identity. If this hypothesis has merit then aren't all trans folk, by definition, therefore non binary? Please don't flame me - just thinking aloud! Safe travels Aisla Well, at risk of repeating a post I actually did recently make at Susan's without any trouble . . . . My personal belief is that nonbinary identities are much more widespread than commonly believed, and probably are a majority of the trans* population. I believe that many trans* people who say they identify within the binary, actually don't, but they don't feel enough familiarity or comfort with the idea of non-binary identity to say that's what they are. Why do I say that? Well, I can't know what's happening inside someone else's head (their gender identity). But I can see how they express what's going on (their gender expression). Binary gender expression seems rare. For example, the sheer number of trans women who say they identify within the binary as women, but they have a huge amount of strongly masculine gender expression. And they're fine with that. And we see trans men who retain an awful lot of feminine gender expression and are fine with that too--although FAAB persons usually seem more willing to embrace a non-binary identity, so you don't see the same number who say they are binary and don't seem that way. That expression seems very nonbinary and does not square with claiming a strictly binary identity. Then there is generational change. Things like genderqueer and non-binary exist in older generations. But they are a whole lot more common in younger ones. Is that because there are more of them among younger generations or is it because younger folks are more familiar with the concept and find it easier to grasp? Well, I doubt that the human race has undergone any fundamental revisions . . . so I tend to think it is more likely that folks are just getting more familiar with the concept and more comfortable saying it. Just my two cents . . . . Or is it that the young generation has had it with bullying, stereotyping, conforming, bigotry and intolerance? And, with many transpeople hitting the wall in our fifties, are we as a demographic significantly behind the curve, as is shown in other support groups than here by..bullying, stereotyping, confroming, bigotry and intolerance.... That old way of thinking is going to become more and more distasteful, and repellant to the young people of trans that seek us, that want our advice and our wisdom, but not our rigidity, speaking as an older transperson. They will be open to presentations that are nonconforming, for nonconforming is in sinc with their young paradynes. It will be "cool". It will be seen as courageous and daring. Not stupid and wierd. Depends on who got to them, if their social programming is wired, how? People have had it with bullying, its not cool anymore to bully trans or gay. They will, some of them, in fear, the same reason a binary will do it, in fear. But it wont be seen as cool. Those days are done. Watch the trend. And by the way, that makes this forum on the cutting edge of that trend, and we have preserved the sages here too, they must be young at hearts for they have had it with bullying, stereotyping, conforming, bigotry and intolerance. You can teach an old trans new tricks. Woof. Interesting post Phoenix, I am looking forward to hearing more from you, your reputation precedes you, and it is a good one. Trinity aka Satinjoy
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Post by ThePhoenix on Dec 7, 2014 14:47:04 GMT 8
Or is it that the young generation has had it with bullying, stereotyping, conforming, bigotry and intolerance? And, with many transpeople hitting the wall in our fifties, are we as a demographic significantly behind the curve, as is shown in other support groups than here by..bullying, stereotyping, confroming, bigotry and intolerance.... That old way of thinking is going to become more and more distasteful, and repellant to the young people of trans that seek us, that want our advice and our wisdom, but not our rigidity, speaking as an older transperson. They will be open to presentations that are nonconforming, for nonconforming is in sinc with their young paradynes. It will be "cool". It will be seen as courageous and daring. Not stupid and wierd. Depends on who got to them, if their social programming is wired, how? People have had it with bullying, its not cool anymore to bully trans or gay. They will, some of them, in fear, the same reason a binary will do it, in fear. But it wont be seen as cool. Those days are done. Watch the trend. And by the way, that makes this forum on the cutting edge of that trend, and we have preserved the sages here too, they must be young at hearts for they have had it with bullying, stereotyping, conforming, bigotry and intolerance. You can teach an old trans new tricks. Woof. Interesting post Phoenix, I am looking forward to hearing more from you, your reputation precedes you, and it is a good one. It seems like every generation challenges the assumptions of the ones that have gone before. I tend to think that's a good thing because it avoids society becoming stagnant. There may even be something to the idea that challenging gender roles by claiming a nonbinary is seen as "edgy" or "cool." But at the same time, my impression is that bullying still very much goes on and is very much targeted at lgbt persons. But I am old enough now (I'm in my 30s) that I'm not really in a position to know what is happening in high school and junior high schools now. I place a lot of future hope in people coming up now. When I talk to someone younger than about 40-45 about trans*, it seems like I'm a lot more likely to get a reaction that the idea is interesting without being bad. Much of the fear and panic seems to come from older generations. Unfortunately, I don't know that the reactions of older folks will change. The older people get, the more they seem to be set in their ways about things. And that too will happen to today's younger generation with time. As as for me, I'm happy to provide whatever support I can to others and to trans* resources in general. But I too have my own issues. Please don't expect too much from me. Not only will I inevitably disappoint you, but it makes it that much harder for me to find space for my own issues, my own problems, and ny own hurt.
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