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Post by EchelonHunt on Nov 24, 2014 15:02:48 GMT 8
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 15:06:49 GMT 8
Hehe~ Well, I imagine knowing each other from here would help to break up the awkwardness. And it helps when you know someone understands what you're going through with both social anxiety and gender expression.
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Anato
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Post by Anato on Nov 26, 2014 5:13:35 GMT 8
Interesting OP. I have usually refrained from adopting the term GQ myself since the meaning of that term is so in flux socially speaking. Too many people I've met see Gender Queer as an "Other" gender identity outside of the binary. But if it can be used for people who are cis and have an atypical gender presentation I guess it can apply to people like me.
I'm glad this post was made, it's good food for thought.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 6:23:23 GMT 8
Shan If my logic is sound, Ie all trans folk are in fact non binary, why were we subject to the lateral violence that we experienced in our previous home? Aisles I try and avoid overthinking most of the vagaries concerning the gender questions because one person's views aren't always applicable to another. I can only imagine what a firestorm your comment would create back at the other place, there are no doubt more than a few that would suffer complete and total colon prolapse's! I think I get the context of where you are coming from but tbh I'm entirely too dull of wit to be able to response intelligently.
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Post by Metamorph on Nov 27, 2014 0:37:28 GMT 8
I will now make a post which would likely have incurred the wrath of the mods at Susans.... If anyone has been born into any binary gender, then with even a short experience of that gender and the socialisation that necessarily follows, how can anyone describe themselves as binary trans. Surely you carry your experience with you even if you choose to reframe and assert a new (non birth) gender identity. If this hypothesis has merit then aren't all trans folk, by definition, therefore non binary? Please don't flame me - just thinking aloud! Safe travels I agree Pkachu- I am not flaming, I promise. I am not necessarily disagreeing. I am mostly just trying to muddle through my own thoughts. Overcoming is not the same as not being influenced. Even if you avoid socialization you were probably more aware of messages about your GAAB than others. This may not have been conscious awareness. Even if you overcame there were those first baby years when you were a sponge soaking up everything. Watch people, they do talk differently to male and female babies. "oh isn't she so sweet". "he's so handsome". "wow, look at how he kicks, he's going to be a football player" etc. They've done studies and most Americans- black or other racists, show some slight "racism" towards black people. Please don't everybody jump on me. I'm not saying anyone here is racist.I'm really not. I tried to find the study I was thinking of but couldn't find it. It was from quite some time ago. I did stumble upon this article about Implicit Bias. It's pretty neat. From the study, it says "Scientific research has demonstrated that biases thought to be absent or extinguished remain as "mental residue" in most of us." So, I think for most of us, we are influenced internally by our GAAB. We may live fully as our true gender, but there will be remnants left on our psyche from that time when we were identified the other way. I hope this doesn't offend anyone. I am truly not trying to.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2014 0:51:45 GMT 8
Chris's comments ring true to some extent and bring to mind an incident that happened at my eldest son's house when the popsicle man drove slowly by. My granddaughter was quite young and asked her daddy for some popsicle money, and my son said, "Here's some money, go get a popsicle from Habib" He was assuming the popsicle man was a mid-easterner as so many are here locally. But it was a smart-assed thing to have said just the same! My granddaughter ran out the door waving her dollar calling out "Habib, habib!" Sonny boy was feeling like a real ass about then. But where did he get that stuff from? More than likely it came from his own father's previous attitude towards immigrants who don't assimilate into society readily, and I'm ashamed to admit having that sort of bias but it's there and I do. So we can probably conclude that these attitudes are inadvertently passed down from one generation to another.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2014 14:42:30 GMT 8
Pkachu- I am not flaming, I promise. I am not necessarily disagreeing. I am mostly just trying to muddle through my own thoughts. Overcoming is not the same as not being influenced. Even if you avoid socialization you were probably more aware of messages about your GAAB than others. This may not have been conscious awareness. Even if you overcame there were those first baby years when you were a sponge soaking up everything. Watch people, they do talk differently to male and female babies. "oh isn't she so sweet". "he's so handsome". "wow, look at how he kicks, he's going to be a football player" etc. They've done studies and most Americans- black or other racists, show some slight "racism" towards black people. Please don't everybody jump on me. I'm not saying anyone here is racist.I'm really not. I tried to find the study I was thinking of but couldn't find it. It was from quite some time ago. I did stumble upon this article about Implicit Bias. It's pretty neat. From the study, it says "Scientific research has demonstrated that biases thought to be absent or extinguished remain as "mental residue" in most of us." So, I think for most of us, we are influenced internally by our GAAB. We may live fully as our true gender, but there will be remnants left on our psyche from that time when we were identified the other way. I hope this doesn't offend anyone. I am truly not trying to. We're all influenced by society and the people in our lives to some extent. How we are influenced, who can say. Sometimes we absorb what they put into us. Sometimes, we rebel and do the total opposite. This, too, is influence. I will make no claims that I've been impervious to the influences of others. Actually, I have a tendency towards rebellion, and as I said, that is influence in the opposite direction. I obviously don't remember what sort of things people said or didn't say to me as a baby. Maybe they were gendered things. I know some of the stuff I experienced throughout childhood was. Of course I experienced that, too, regardless of how introverted I was. But I can't remember embracing those things. I remember hating and resenting most expectations that came with being a "boy." These things weren't a part of me. They were something I was occasionally forced into, and the moment that stopped being the case, I stopped participating in them with no regrets. All I know is that I am me, and I am most definitely female. Sometimes I feel like sort of an imposter among non-binaries. I have the 'MTF Non-binary' label over there <-, but am I really? For me, the non-binary part is more of a political statement and declaration of gender freedom than part of my actual identity. It's there because I recognize I deviate from the standard trans narrative in some ways, and because I often feel the outsider among groups of other MTFs. But I've never wavered in my identity as a woman. I've only wavered in my identity as an MTF, if that makes any sense. No negative vibes in this response, either. Just my thoughts in response to yours. Feel free to post your opinion. Edit: I'd also like to add that gender experiences are not universal. Far from it. As every person's perspectives on gender differ, so do the messages we each receive. This combines with our own vastly differing experiences in the world relating to gender, and well... Who can say then that my experience growing up as my GAAB was not the same as some little cis girl's experience somewhere? Maybe not the majority, but definitely someone's. That experience wouldn't make her any less her gender, so I don't see how it would for me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2014 15:14:33 GMT 8
I will now make a post which would likely have incurred the wrath of the mods at Susans.... If anyone has been born into any binary gender, then with even a short experience of that gender and the socialisation that necessarily follows, how can anyone describe themselves as binary trans. Surely you carry your experience with you even if you choose to reframe and assert a new (non birth) gender identity. If this hypothesis has merit then aren't all trans folk, by definition, therefore non binary? Please don't flame me - just thinking aloud! Safe travels Aisla Think out loud anytime you want to. Flames? It's cold everywhere anyway and a bonfire will keep you warm. It is worth asking because I really don't know. I don't think I am binary but I identify as female psychologically more than male. I would think you are right but that is just me and my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2014 19:54:11 GMT 8
I will now make a post which would likely have incurred the wrath of the mods at Susans.... If anyone has been born into any binary gender, then with even a short experience of that gender and the socialisation that necessarily follows, how can anyone describe themselves as binary trans. Surely you carry your experience with you even if you choose to reframe and assert a new (non birth) gender identity. If this hypothesis has merit then aren't all trans folk, by definition, therefore non binary? Please don't flame me - just thinking aloud! Safe travels Aisla Think out loud anytime you want to. Flames? It's cold everywhere anyway and a bonfire will keep you warm. It is worth asking because I really don't know. I don't think I am binary but I identify as female psychologically more than male. I would think you are right but that is just me and my opinion. If the pain is strong enough... I know those who closed the door of their male past and locked it. Their need, their truth. I have no problem with that for them. Only if it is pushed onto others that are non binary do I find it offending. Lot of colors in the sunrise of all trans.
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Metamorph
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Post by Metamorph on Nov 28, 2014 10:43:51 GMT 8
Pkachu- I am not flaming, I promise. I am not necessarily disagreeing. I am mostly just trying to muddle through my own thoughts. Overcoming is not the same as not being influenced. Even if you avoid socialization you were probably more aware of messages about your GAAB than others. This may not have been conscious awareness. Even if you overcame there were those first baby years when you were a sponge soaking up everything. Watch people, they do talk differently to male and female babies. "oh isn't she so sweet". "he's so handsome". "wow, look at how he kicks, he's going to be a football player" etc. They've done studies and most Americans- black or other racists, show some slight "racism" towards black people. Please don't everybody jump on me. I'm not saying anyone here is racist.I'm really not. I tried to find the study I was thinking of but couldn't find it. It was from quite some time ago. I did stumble upon this article about Implicit Bias. It's pretty neat. From the study, it says "Scientific research has demonstrated that biases thought to be absent or extinguished remain as "mental residue" in most of us." So, I think for most of us, we are influenced internally by our GAAB. We may live fully as our true gender, but there will be remnants left on our psyche from that time when we were identified the other way. I hope this doesn't offend anyone. I am truly not trying to. We're all influenced by society and the people in our lives to some extent. How we are influenced, who can say. Sometimes we absorb what they put into us. Sometimes, we rebel and do the total opposite. This, too, is influence. I will make no claims that I've been impervious to the influences of others. Actually, I have a tendency towards rebellion, and as I said, that is influence in the opposite direction. I obviously don't remember what sort of things people said or didn't say to me as a baby. Maybe they were gendered things. I know some of the stuff I experienced throughout childhood was. Of course I experienced that, too, regardless of how introverted I was. But I can't remember embracing those things. I remember hating and resenting most expectations that came with being a "boy." These things weren't a part of me. They were something I was occasionally forced into, and the moment that stopped being the case, I stopped participating in them with no regrets. All I know is that I am me, and I am most definitely female. Sometimes I feel like sort of an imposter among non-binaries. I have the 'MTF Non-binary' label over there <-, but am I really? For me, the non-binary part is more of a political statement and declaration of gender freedom than part of my actual identity. It's there because I recognize I deviate from the standard trans narrative in some ways, and because I often feel the outsider among groups of other MTFs. But I've never wavered in my identity as a woman. I've only wavered in my identity as an MTF, if that makes any sense. No negative vibes in this response, either. Just my thoughts in response to yours. Feel free to post your opinion. Edit: I'd also like to add that gender experiences are not universal. Far from it. As every person's perspectives on gender differ, so do the messages we each receive. This combines with our own vastly differing experiences in the world relating to gender, and well... Who can say then that my experience growing up as my GAAB was not the same as some little cis girl's experience somewhere? Maybe not the majority, but definitely someone's. That experience wouldn't make her any less her gender, so I don't see how it would for me. I think we share many of the same viewpoints really. We are perhaps just expressing them differently. When I was young, I rejected all things girl. To a point that was ridiculous at times but the only way I had of saying who I was, was by saying who I was not.
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Charr
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Post by Charr on Nov 30, 2014 6:36:47 GMT 8
I think genderqueer is not necesarily non-binary, because its non-normative, and there are binary non-normative people. But non-binary is always non-normative.
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Post by Leki on Nov 30, 2014 14:45:59 GMT 8
Interesting article.
The reason I have issue with the queer movement is that queer means weird and I don't get why people want to re-claim a word that means weird.
Having said that I could be genderqueer so I may have to use the word one day hahaha
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TessaJames
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Post by TessaJames on Dec 1, 2014 2:31:53 GMT 8
Genderqueer is a term I used for a few months in a "try it on" mood and I still like it very much but similar to non binary it is another label and will fall far short of our unique individuality. I consider that the age at which one transitions is a major factor for some of us. I started this serious transition at age 60 but made weak attempt before and was consistently androgynous in my past. That said I don't think I will ever escape the decades of socialization and influences on my character and development. I thought about that in my early transition process and it is one reason I have kept my old first name as my new middle name. I want to honor my past. I have done enough hiding and had an awful secret for too long. I am staying as out and open as possible now and find it is easy and refreshing.
I respect those who are much younger with a different outlook and different needs. Now i know people who are in grade school and high school who identify as transgender. Some have started hormone blockers as teens and have a much better opportunity, IMO, of living a long and fulfilling life with the gender identity that fits for them. With supportive families and schools they will have far less inappropriate socialization to undue or overcome. It seems many of them are happy to forget about the past or even go stealth.
Part of this discussion reminds me of the old "nature vs. nurture" debate. We have not yet developed the technology or psychological processes to accurately determine the impacts to identity from those sources. It is clearly not all destiny or experience at play here?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 0:51:33 GMT 8
Being queer is as much a political identity as it is a gender identity
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 1:14:41 GMT 8
Or a sexuality.
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