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Post by Ayla on Apr 13, 2015 9:04:38 GMT 8
Ativan
OK. I will agree to disagree. High profile folk transitioning is not necessarily a negative. Is Jenner strong enough to take this on and deal with the prejudice and the hate, I think so and I hope so? The irony here is that large elements of society detest the Kardashians and all they stand for. Here we have one of the more reasonable, normal and likable family members put themselves out there.
Transitioning in stealth appears to be what most folk condone, quite frankly I think we are past this. While the OP's comments purely related to physical appearance as a qualifier, and I had issue with this, your comments now appear to preclude anyone transitioning in a public fashion if they have a high profile. Chaz Bono did this with some aplomb as have Katherine McGregor and many other women. Is it the soap box nature of the Kardashians' life in general which has you discomfited? Do you think Jenner really has any other option than to deal with this as gracefully, professionally and as logically as they are - seems to have worked for many other public figures disclosing or discussing far less edifying aspects of their character than that which Jenner is apparently revealing.
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 9:24:38 GMT 8
Shan I think we agree that cis folk or indeed the world is in fact quite visual. However Jenner hasn't even announced themself as trans, much less positioned themself as a spokesperson. But lets accept your premise that the media would be less likely to flame or to question an attractive transgender person who 'passes', or is indeed young and highly attractive, like Pejic ... is this a necessary or sufficient condition for them to speak for us? My sense is that the answer is a resounding 'no'. This plays into the whole beauty myth, the desperate need to 'pass' and validating/seeking the judgement and support of others largely based on looks. Like cis women there are many trans women who may not achieve the feminine ideal of beauty. For the vast majority of us, we were not blessed by genetics, age or support to enable transition at an early age. For these folk and for society in general I think it is important that folk understand that dysphoria is real, it it can be overwhelming, it is crippling and it pervades all parts of society - age, color, gender etc Who better to show a life time of anguish and the reality of living with dysphoria - (even though apparently blessed by everything the cis male world values - athleticism, wealth, power, intellect and good looks), than for someone like Jenner to declare themselves trans and publicly share their pain, transition and outcome. This is reality for many. This will encourage many and it will help educate and challenge the thinking of many others. As a result I am more than comfortable with Jenner as a spokesperson, but there again I am comfortable with you, Ativan, Julie, Trinity, Mark and many, many others speaking for us, as I know that, at the end of the day, each us will be speaking for our community, by deed and by action. Safe travels Aisla Unfortunately the cis world doesn't give a rats ass about a transgender's anguish and dysphoria, in fact that don't know what dysphoria is nor do they care to. This is the reality we have to consider outside of our bubble.
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Post by Ayla on Apr 13, 2015 9:35:03 GMT 8
Shan
I suspect that elements of the cis world are entirely disinterested or even threatened by our existence. However remaining in an opaque bubble does not help our cause or indeed help our brothers and sisters who are lost, in pain and consider themselves alone, defective and without self understanding and acceptance.
To avoid any risk or upsetting folk for whom I have too much respect I will now leave this thread.
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 9:38:46 GMT 8
Shan I suspect that elements of the cis world are entirely disinterested or even threatened by our existence. However remaining in an opaque bubble does not help our cause or indeed help our brothers and sisters who are lost, in pain and consider themselves alone, defective and without self understanding and acceptance. To avoid any risk or upsetting folk for whom I have too much respect I will now leave this thread. Safe travels Aisla You don't upset anyone Aisla, we can have a difference of opinion and be adults about it, that was my point about the OP that was banned. Yeah she's snarky and opinionated and doesn't mince words but so what? We should be able to have a discussion rather than banning those we disagree with.
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Post by Patty on Apr 13, 2015 9:46:14 GMT 8
I personally think it is a wonderful moment for us.Ms Jenner is the same age as I 65 . Whether she will be a great spokes person for us remains to be seen.She is doing her interview with Diane and not on the K families E channel which is a publicity plus for her.She is setting the stage for her own brand and all the channels will be bidding for it.Time will tell but she is one smart cookie and if there is a dollar to be made by this she will find it. Several of my friends have already mentioned and spoke to me about her I told them that I really don't have any answers and that from my perspective it is a very courageous thing to do on her part.She like I will never again be young,pretty ,or beautiful she will be a mature older woman that with some plastic will most likely look younger but the age on the body never goes away it just keeps adding up.. Good luck to her in her journey .. Patty
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 13, 2015 10:58:19 GMT 8
Ativan OK. I will agree to disagree. High profile folk transitioning is not necessarily a negative. Is Jenner strong enough to take this on and deal with the prejudice and the hate, I think so and I hope so? The irony here is that large elements of society detest the Kardashians and all they stand for. Here we have one of the more reasonable, normal and likable family members put themselves out there. Transitioning in stealth appears to be what most folk condone, quite frankly I think we are past this. While the OP's comments purely related to physical appearance as a qualifier, and I had issue with this, your comments now appear to preclude anyone transitioning in a public fashion if they have a high profile. Chaz Bono did this with some aplomb as have Katherine McGregor and many other women. Is it the soap box nature of the Kardashians' life in general which has you discomfited? Do you think Jenner really has any other option than to deal with this as gracefully, professionally and as logically as they are - seems to have worked for many other public figures disclosing or discussing far less edifying aspects of their character than that which Jenner is apparently revealing. Safe travels Aisla I never agree to disagree. You either agree or don't, and it would seem,.. you don't. I never said anything against Jenner, it was about what the media will do or attempt to do, which is to turn it into a circus. Had you even bothered to ask me first before running off on this, what I think of Jenner, I would have reminded you about my previous statements about him being a great athlete at one time. I have never said anything negative about Jenner, only about how the media is already treating this as yet another opportunity to make a fast buck. Perhaps you have mistaken my generally negative attitude towards how the media is handling this as something negative about Jenner. The point of it is, that the community has lately been doing very well for itself and doesn't need a circus of controversy from the media that has already started in on it. It would seem that was lost in your thoughts as you dove into wanting to keep the topic going about someone being banned. Which I didn't bring up, with intention. Enough has been said already, without consensus about how that even happened or took place. I never saw it, I have asked about it, but it seems that the direct answers to direct questions of what exactly was said, escapes even you. I didn't say anything about people transitioning in stealth, you take your meandering thoughts about this too far there. I didn't say that Jenner had other options and didn't imply it. Again your thoughts are meandering. The media circus has already latched onto it and do you think they are going to sit back and let Jenner dictate what they say, when they can and will say whatever they want to ensure more ad revenue? Did those other people started off with it being a circus to begin with? You read an awful lot of negativity into this, more than is actual or necessary. This is why i never agree to disagree, because it gives license to some to then continue on and on, twisting words out of proportion to push their own agenda's. I don't think for a minute that you agree to disagree, you simply disagree and don't need to use such a smokescreen to pretend that what you then have to say is a part of some odd agreement arrangement that you then very simply throw out and disagree anyways. I won't and don't agree to disagree, I disagree with your assessment and hope you can entertain the idea that my comment meant none of the things you have wrongly assumed it has.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Apr 13, 2015 11:55:23 GMT 8
Its one thing to have an opinion, it's quite another to label someone a freak or a freak show.
The OP is welcome to return if she refrains from using degoratory labels. I will believe she is a lovely transwoman when I see it.
I did agree with her assessment that transwomen who cannot pass shouldn't be led into a false sense of security, however her opinion that transwomen should only be beautiful and passable to be representatives for the community is discriminatory and erases pre-op transwomen who cannot pass. My point is they exist and should not be shoved aside just because they do not fulfill the attractive female stereotype.
It all comes back to stereotypes again, doesn't it?
I don't even care for Bruce Jenner or the lives celebrities. The OP can be respectful and still have an intelligent discussion without using the word freak, right? I'm not saying she has to go full on politically correct, just to be mindful of her word choices and the implications it has. For example, she calls Bruce Jenner a freak and ugly, if Bruce does indeed come out as a pre-op transwomen, she might as well be saying that all non-passable pre-op transwomen are freaks and ugly. No, she didn't say that but can you see what I am getting at? I want this forum to be a respectful and supportive place and that includes removing posts that can be easily misconstrued as an attack on transwomen due to poor wording and lack of clarification.
Ativan, please respect Aisla's decision to leave the thread, don't make it personal just because she does not agree with you. Please have some humility.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 19:25:56 GMT 8
Be careful about reading emotions into thread responses.
We are passionate folk. Especially when we are directly affected. Passionate and sensitive.
Truth gets said. Honestly I did not see disrespect in the Ativan response, without taking sides, it was to me very blunt.
They are very direct when they speak.
Suggest, without undermining anything or anyone, that we keep in mind just how passionate we are, and keep truthful dialogue going.
Sorry to butt in. Seemed important.
Thanks
No criticism or controlling intended here.
We need to speak our minds, and passion is a huge part of many here.
Truth cannot be exposed without clear dialogue.
It's just something to be aware of.
As are the power of word choices and language. Some are inflammatory, some sugar coated. Use them with purpose, know their power.
Be aware of the power of words know who you are. Your words, everyone's,,have force and power.
It's obvious, but that awareness of sugar coating, or of fire words, conscious choices to make.
Personally, I don't like sugar coating, nor fire words. Unless purpose is there to do that. Sacharine words irritate, fire stirs other things. Plain speaking is powerful and persuasive, because it is direct. It is truthspeak.
Words that inflate, words that deflate, be cognizant of what you are doing. This is not a thought for one person. I am speaking to all of us. Asking we raise the bar.
Speak truth dear ones, with awareness.
Plenty of truth in topic already.
I prefer watching lady valour.
And keeping my ego out of posts, and that's not easy to do. Ego centered os not a good center to speak.from. nor deception centers, insecurity centers, ego feeding centers.
Love centers, truth centers. Big time power sources in communication. Tough love, soft love. Truth. Sometimes other centers, that's cool too, dump it, express feelings as they come up.
If we do not speak truth then we are not loving the other. But that horsepower in the words. Respect your horsepower. We all have lots of horsepower. Every one of us.
It's awfully presumptuous for me to speak out like this. I sure hope I am telling truth.
Just considerations. I don't want to manipulate anyone. Even though I just did.
My emotions are flat, peaceful right now. Don't read anything else into it.
Blessings
TSJ.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 23:56:06 GMT 8
I think anything concerning Jenner is premature, I don't think their transition is going to bode well for trans-folk because familiarity is invariably a breeding ground for contempt and his past as a former Olympic champion and his affiliation with the self promoting Kardashian family will no doubt create a wtf moment for many and his motives will come under such scrutiny it will become a media circus just as Ativan has said. My spouse says that transgender people who draw a lot of attention to themselves should transition quietly, blend in and move on with their lives. I understand how she thinks and know that she isn't a bigot by any means, she thinks like most people do when some Hollywood actor or sports luminary comes out and announces via the media "I'm Gay!" She says "And who cares anyway, what business is it of anyone else and what's the point, what if we came out and made a public announcement that we are hetrosexual, how stupid is that?" Her own younger brother and his partner are gay men, she loves them both and neither of them would make it a media event and both are horrified by those that do.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 1:11:14 GMT 8
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 3:58:43 GMT 8
I like it that we can have diverse opinions here and though we don't care for another's thoughts and attitudes concerning a subject, we can still always care for each other even though we squabble at times just like all families do. Just to drive home the point that Evelyn, myself and Ativan are referring to, this is humorous at first look, but given that SNL is liberal-centric media it clearly emphasizes the barracuda like nature of the media when they decimate their own political darling who just announced her candidacy for President. Jenner will no doubt be no exception, the feeding frenzy may become epic, so don't be disappointed if that's the case. www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdNYXMQoy8
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 5:29:19 GMT 8
Its one thing to have an opinion, it's quite another to label someone a freak or a freak show.
The OP is welcome to return if she refrains from using degoratory labels. I will believe she is a lovely transwoman when I see it.
I did agree with her assessment that transwomen who cannot pass shouldn't be led into a false sense of security, however her opinion that transwomen should only be beautiful and passable to be representatives for the community is discriminatory and erases pre-op transwomen who cannot pass. My point is they exist and should not be shoved aside just because they do not fulfill the attractive female stereotype.
It all comes back to stereotypes again, doesn't it?
I don't even care for Bruce Jenner or the lives celebrities. The OP can be respectful and still have an intelligent discussion without using the word freak, right? I'm not saying she has to go full on politically correct, just to be mindful of her word choices and the implications it has. For example, she calls Bruce Jenner a freak and ugly, if Bruce does indeed come out as a pre-op transwomen, she might as well be saying that all non-passable pre-op transwomen are freaks and ugly. No, she didn't say that but can you see what I am getting at? I want this forum to be a respectful and supportive place and that includes removing posts that can be easily misconstrued as an attack on transwomen due to poor wording and lack of clarification.
Ativan, please respect Aisla's decision to leave the thread, don't make it personal just because she does not agree with you. Please have some humility. Guilty here. It would not be the worst name I have ever been called. Seriously though. When it comes to Jenner. It is their business. He or she or anything else in between. Personally I think it may come out eventually that Bruce Jenner is non binary. Really FFS? I think if I had the money that Jenner had from the whole Kardashian fiasco I would be looking really beautiful now. I mean if I had that kind of money, I would be drop dead gorgeous, with beautiful breasts just the right size and a butt that would not quit if I wanted to transition fully with or without SRS. Maybe Bruce Jenner is more on the non binary scale and identifies as both but just wanted a little bit more feminization in the face and a low dose of HRT. I think the whole media is painting either transitioning when maybe it is just Bruce Jenner's way of feeling more comfortable within their own skin like so many of us and just doing little bits at a time. Where it stops isn't up to the media or anyone else. But just to the person involved. I do have to agree with Jayce though. The media when it comes to the trans community is so stereotypically either MTF or FTM with no variance in between. All the things I have seen and heard is speculation on Bruce Jenner transitioning to female. What if Bruce Jenner is just transitioning to a more androgynous appearance and self identity but still stays Bruce Jenner? That I haven't heard or haven't seen yet in any of the gossip rags or shows. It is a possibility.
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Post by Sisyphus on Apr 15, 2015 22:31:54 GMT 8
I was drawn to the title of this thread because of a magazine article I read the other day that made me pretty angry. I don't normally read magazines like this because I'm not really interested in certain ways our culture can be mean and not even know it. I was in some office waiting for an appointment and I thought to myself, "Its probably a good idea to read one thing from each of these magazines so at least I know whats going on in mainstream culture and what frame of reference people are coming from."
I should have known better.
I selected the one on Bruce Jenner because there is a comfort in reading on relevant topics. Something is happening - I don't know what and I'm not assuming anything yet, but it appears something is changing with Jenner.
I was reading through the article and the whole premise was that Bruce Jenner was changing because the mother in the family (Chris Jenner?) was an overbearing, emasculating, horrible person. It specifically said that her behavior was emasculating and pushed Bruce to become a woman because she wouldn't allow him to be a man, that she was a ballbuster who was stealing his manhood by humiliating him and berating him and cuckolding him, and he felt if his manhood was stolen, he might as well become a woman (implying that to be treated badly as a man is to basically be the same as being a woman). It was placed in a spread of articles relating the mother to multiple people on the show, demonstrating how each of them though she was a bitch (that word was used) and how she ruined and pushed people away.
At that point I flipped back to the cover of the magazine to see what piece of cruelty I was reading, because I wasn't expecting that kind of bullying take-down aimed at any one.
Then I sat, waiting for my appointment, steaming. First, it made me so angry that they used what ever external non-conforming gender of Bruce Jenner to negate any positive facts about whatever his gender is and whatever this level of transition means. They specifically related becoming a trans woman (whether that is where Jenner is at or not) to having your masculinity damaged. I stewed at that.
It wasn't until a little later that I also realize that they specifically defined being a woman in the framework of a) not being male and b) having your manhood stolen from you and c) being treated badly. And then I realized that by villainizing (Chris Jenner?) they were also basically saying that having an unstable female personality causes instability in solidly male personalities.
And that, made me feel even more yucky.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 0:40:47 GMT 8
It wasn't until a little later that I also realize that they specifically defined being a woman in the framework of a) not being male and b) having your manhood stolen from you and c) being treated badly. And then I realized that by villainizing (Chris Jenner?) they were also basically saying that having an unstable female personality causes instability in solidly male personalities. And that, made me feel even more yucky. I get that sisyphus! It's erroneous BS as if to say that if you're a male brought up by a single female you will probably wind up being an effeminate gay or trans woman, or if a girl whose mother left and the father brings up the child she will no doubt become a masculine dyke lesbian or a FtM to be more like daddy and fill the gap for a father who never had a son. The psychologists could have a heyday with that kind of non-sensical editorializing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 2:07:20 GMT 8
Well already youtube is releasing a trailer about Bruce Jenner being interviewed by Diane Sawyer. HMMMM. I wonder where this will lead. I guess when you find that you like the "Spotlight" you really go looking for other "Spotlights" to revel in. Personally I would want to be left alone and have privacy during the time and then if so I chose to seek the "Spotlight" again.
In the age of reality shows that are more staged than real life, get ready. First the Media and then the Networks. Personally I think it could go either way, we are seen in a positive light or we are seen in a negative light or just a "people sick of hearing about it light", much like the Kardashians. Hell it could be good though because like I said earlier, Bruce Jenner was one of the more normal of that whole clan. I guess I know why now.
Looking back now I feel really sorry for Bruce Jenner. I mean if you are longing to be female and you are really dysphoric then living with a wife and three? step daughters and longing to be the same can't be too good of a situation mentally. Just think, that would really be a living hell. Not to leave our brothers out but just imagine the opposite.
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