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Post by Taka on Feb 22, 2015 18:14:48 GMT 8
i've no idea who that jenner is. i don't care much either. seems like the media have found a new michael jackson. about time they did, the people need some speculations about self hate and plastic surgeries to become someone else.
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Post by Ayla on Feb 22, 2015 19:19:51 GMT 8
I think there is more going on here. Bruce Jenner was the poster child of the Olympics. The best all round male athlete on the planet. Then a successful businessman. Then a bit part in a soapie, but nevertheless revealed as a good father and parent.
Should they transition and declare themselves trans there will be quite a few confused folk trying to reconcile the reality of Bruce with their prejudice aqainst trans. Whether it becomes a media circus or not I think that it will educate many and help many others.
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Ayla on Mar 4, 2015 15:33:19 GMT 8
As anticipated the level of interest in Bruce Jenner's plans is without precedent. This NY Times article argues that the publicity will be unprecedented and in general will be very positive for our community... Time will tell if the media circus moves onto this much anticipated conclusion. nyti.ms/1IlogFp safe travels Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 22:38:01 GMT 8
Well, this just shows me how clueless I am about popular culture. I had no idea Bruce Jenner was associated with the Kardasians. For the longest time, I thought the Kardasians was some star trek spin off because there were bad guys in star trek that were kardasians or something like that. I still only have the vaguest sense of what the Kardasian show was really about and don't really understand why there was so much hoopla about her ass. Reality tv is what made me get rid of tv/cable/etc. When even the more educational channels turned to more reality tv type programming I was done. As far as Bruce Jenner and their possible transition go, I hope it doesn't become a reality tv show. I think it's too likely to become a circus and do the trans world as much harm as good. I don't think we can scold the writes for how the gendered Bruce yet. Not until Bruce speaks up about how they wish to be gendered. Hmm... well, now is that true? I guess the best way to handle it would be to use gender neutral pronouns? Oh how I relate! I have come to loathe the Kardasians, they are featured in every magazine stand, pop up daily in my Internet Homepage, they are nothing more than the offspring of a now deceased attorney that was on the legal team of a famous trial. They have all had their female parts surgically enhanced and have marketed themselves as sex kittens for all the tabloids. Kim's ass is enormous and frankly rather repulsive and I'm sick to death hearing about them continually, it sadly depicts the sharp decline of western culture.
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Post by Ayla on Mar 5, 2015 3:45:56 GMT 8
.... and the reactions and commentary ahead of this circus already runs hot. Suspect we will see the good, the bad and the ugly, but there will be no hiding if/when they make their announcement. Given the Kardashian's brand marketing, the awareness of and reaction to our community will be significantly, and I think, on balance positively impacted
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 6:41:14 GMT 8
.... and the reactions and commentary ahead of this circus already runs hot. Suspect we will see the good, the bad and the ugly, but there will be no hiding if/when they make their announcement. Given the Kardashian's brand marketing, the awareness of and reaction to our community will be significantly, and I think, on balance positively impacted Safe travels Aisla We made the Kardashians famous and rich. I don't watch them. Hell Bruce Jenner was the only normal one of the group. It's still in the news and on Pop TV shows and talk shows. Just heard it mentioned on The Wendy Williams Show. I personally could care less. Let her transition in peace unless of course like I said before another freakin' reality show. :rolleyes:Thank you survivor for messing up TV.
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Post by bhhfmm on Mar 5, 2015 7:06:11 GMT 8
Some "reality" shows are ok, I have my favorites. Probably would make my late father laugh at me though because I used to give him crap for watching so many of them. but he would like the car ones, the gold mining ones and a few others that I watch.
I have an idea that they are going to make a circus of it though, otherwise, it wouldn't be worth their time putting it on the air regularly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 8:29:46 GMT 8
Some "reality" shows are ok, I have my favorites. Probably would make my late father laugh at me though because I used to give him crap for watching so many of them. but he would like the car ones, the gold mining ones and a few others that I watch.
I have an idea that they are going to make a circus of it though, otherwise, it wouldn't be worth their time putting it on the air regularly. I like Ice Road Truckers, the gal Lisa is a cool can-do type chickster!
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Post by bhhfmm on Mar 5, 2015 8:33:02 GMT 8
Some "reality" shows are ok, I have my favorites. Probably would make my late father laugh at me though because I used to give him crap for watching so many of them. but he would like the car ones, the gold mining ones and a few others that I watch.
I have an idea that they are going to make a circus of it though, otherwise, it wouldn't be worth their time putting it on the air regularly. I like Ice Road Truckers, the gal Lisa is a cool can-do type chickster! That one too is good. Highway to Hell on the weather channel is pretty good too, but not as good as IRT. Hopefully, Lisa will return, its good to see a woman on that show.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 8:35:31 GMT 8
I like Ice Road Truckers, the gal Lisa is a cool can-do type chickster! That one too is good. Highway to Hell on the weather channel is pretty good too, but not as good as IRT. Hopefully, Lisa will return, its good to see a woman on that show.
Sha can handle her own in a rough environment that lots of men wouldn't consider working in.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 0:44:32 GMT 8
I know this conversation has run it's course and was pre-mature in the first place based solely on a lot of speculation. A few days ago a very lovely trans woman I know who I invited here joined us and posted a comment on this thread that disapproved of Jenner, a well known luminary and Hollywood gadfly, as being seen and elevated as any kind of model of the transgender world. Knowing how attractive and successful her own transition was I can completely understand her point of view. (Perhaps LaVerne Cox or some other successful trans woman would be a better choice) However her comment ran so completely contrary to other people's views that she was summarily banned and called a troll which I find it really unacceptable that we can't allow a diversity of opinions here, unless of course we are fascists. I can think of many others that would be much better representatives that the majority of the cis world is not remotely aware of and who would definitely be much more acceptable and much less controversial than Jenner. toptenpk.com/top-10-transgendered-beautiful-female-models-who-born-male/
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Post by Ayla on Apr 13, 2015 4:57:59 GMT 8
Shan
I don't know whether or not you read the post and I accept that the OP may not have intentionally been as provocative as they were. From my best recollection (and my memory is not as good as it used to be), they certainly didn't talk to Jenner's broad suitability as a spokesperson for transgendered folk. The question posed quite simply was how the trans community could be comfortable with someone (Jenner) who was not young or attractive being seen as the poster child or spokesperson for trans. The OP's name was also deliberately chosen to refer to physical beauty reinforcing their apparent prejudice.
Given the above I have no problems with the removal of the posts. Ignoring for the moment that Jenner has yet to declare that they are trans, my concerns are the wording of the OP which was at best clumsy, at worst hateful. Rather than ask whether Jenner would be a good spokesperson eg. Are they mentally stable, a good communicator, have a criminal record, are thoughtful, successful, respected, well known, credible etc the OP's only apparent concern was Jenner's ability to not just pass but whether they were attractive enough for our community to be comfortable with them should they become a spokesperson or poster child for trans.
My two cents worth - there will be many spokesfolk for our community and that is as it should be. I hope that this will be as large and as diverse a group as possible. However ridiculing, discrediting or criticising someone before they have even come out as trans on the sole basis of their physical appearance is unreasonable, just as it would be if they were to criticise their age, color, identity etc.
I have therefore no problem with the offending posts being removed and I am not particularly interested in their photographs. I try to judge folk by their personality, values, actions and comments ... appearance, not so much.
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 7:28:21 GMT 8
Shan I don't know whether or not you read the post and I accept that the OP may not have intentionally been as provocative as they were. From my best recollection (and my memory is not as good as it used to be), they certainly didn't talk to Jenner's broad suitability as a spokesperson for transgendered folk. The question posed quite simply was how the trans community could be comfortable with someone (Jenner) who was not young or attractive being seen as the poster child or spokesperson for trans. The OP's name was also deliberately chosen to refer to physical beauty reinforcing their apparent prejudice. Let's say that she doesn't fit the "man in a dress"picture at all and she knows it and those that do know it about themselves can hardly be expected to admit that Jenner would be an apt spokesperson or model for the transgender community any more than I would be. We all know that the cis world at large is first and foremost visual and if there is an Ewwww factor then it wouldn't matter how articulate that person would be.Given the above I have no problems with the removal of the posts. Ignoring for the moment that Jenner has yet to declare that they are trans, my concerns are the wording of the OP which was at best clumsy, at worst hateful. Hateful is an oft overused word to describe a comment that others disagree with, knowing this person as I do I will admit that she lacks finesse and says it like it is. I missed that conversation but I get the gist of what she said which leaves me wondering if there was any dialog between she and the rest of you rather than having an "OMG moment?"Rather than ask whether Jenner would be a good spokesperson eg. Are they mentally stable, a good communicator, have a criminal record, are thoughtful, successful, respected, well known, credible etc the OP's only apparent concern was Jenner's ability to not just pass but whether they were attractive enough for our community to be comfortable with them should they become a spokesperson or poster child for trans. My two cents worth - there will be many spokesfolk for our community and that is as it should be. I hope that this will be as large and as diverse a group as possible. However ridiculing, discrediting or criticising someone before they have even come out as trans on the sole basis of their physical appearance is unreasonable, just as it would be if they were to criticise their age, color, identity etc. I have therefore no problem with the offending posts being removed and I am not particularly interested in their photographs. I try to judge folk by their personality, values, actions and comments .. . appearance, not so much. You and I are an exception to the rule, like I said the cis world won't accept that at all.Safe travels Aisla
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Post by Ayla on Apr 13, 2015 7:48:38 GMT 8
Shan
I think we agree that cis folk or indeed the world is in fact quite visual. However Jenner hasn't even announced themself as trans, much less positioned themself as a spokesperson. But lets accept your premise that the media would be less likely to flame or to question an attractive transgender person who 'passes', or is indeed young and highly attractive, like Pejic ... is this a necessary or sufficient condition for them to speak for us? My sense is that the answer is a resounding 'no'. This plays into the whole beauty myth, the desperate need to 'pass' and validating/seeking the judgement and support of others largely based on looks. Like cis women there are many trans women who may not achieve the feminine ideal of beauty. For the vast majority of us, we were not blessed by genetics, age or support to enable transition at an early age. For these folk and for society in general I think it is important that folk understand that dysphoria is real, it it can be overwhelming, it is crippling and it pervades all parts of society - age, color, gender etc
Who better to show a life time of anguish and the reality of living with dysphoria - (even though apparently blessed by everything the cis male world values - athleticism, wealth, power, intellect and good looks), than for someone like Jenner to declare themselves trans and publicly share their pain, transition and outcome. This is reality for many. This will encourage many and it will help educate and challenge the thinking of many others.
As a result I am more than comfortable with Jenner as a spokesperson, but there again I am comfortable with you, Ativan, Julie, Trinity, Mark and many, many others speaking for us, as I know that, at the end of the day, each us will be speaking for our community, by deed and by action.
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 13, 2015 8:46:11 GMT 8
Anytime there is controversy surrounding a person, it is easily used in a negative way, not only for that person, but it can for those they are connected with. Today's media thrives on pretty much grabbing onto negatives and running with them. It's becoming more and more rare that people who are making a true positive impact on society get any media coverage at all. Anything, anyone, if there is a way to take and twist things into a negative, the media does. It's become the bread and butter of the most looked at sources of 'news'. It is less interested in the truth than it is in sensationalizing, often in negative ways that are harmful to society in general. There is less real news, and more jumping the gun on the negative aspects of most of what passes as news. TV is even farther off the path of honesty and integrity. Give them something to rip into on a feeding frenzy to generate ratings to sell their brands of crap is more often the rule than the exception. Despite Jenner's good qualities, there is already a lot of negatives being thrown around in simple controversy alone. Anything that reinforces dumb assed crap like bathroom bills being passed is going to be picked up and run with. That is the stuff of reality, no matter how we want to slice and dice it. At this point, with trans acceptance at an all time high and climbing, the dumbing down media will take someone like Jenner and roast them, they already have. Media attention is hard enough to get in positive ways, and nothing against Jenner by any means, but if they even do come out as trans, the damage has already been done and will become even more controversial. That there is acceptance as it is now, is because it has been quietly gained by positive role models that have been able to withstand the punishment of the media. It has been by the community ignoring the repeated jabs by bigots, not by the news media. It has come about by a large share, by those who have come out as trans quietly and steadfastly to their families, neighbors, and co-workers. The media has tried it's best to keep the controversies alive with negative values about the community, and in not finding it sells, have backed off. This has empowered many more trans people to speak up for themselves within their own circles and that in your face negative media circus has lost interest. But with Jenner, they have already brought that back in speculation. Does the community need to revisit that kind of exposure again? It has been by simply ignoring and walking past the bigots themselves, and the more the bigots have screamed and yelled, the worse they come off. They are losing favor as a brand of controversy that stokes the negatives in the media today when it comes to the community. Had Jenner been able to transition, if that is even what they want to do, without the media circus that is going to scrutinize and bastardize every last thing they do, and then simply present themselves as they wish to be seen, there would be mild controversy at best. But as it is, the controversy has already gone into negative value for the community when nobody really knows. The Kardashian connection is doing no one any favors. If Jenner does come out as trans and does reveal their plans for themself, will they be able to overcome the negativity that has already been started? The less controversial, the better. The best spokespersons the community has, are reserved and don't buy into the baiting that the media circus has offered them. This is how society has come to see the community in general, as not in your face controversial, but as calm and reserved and not taking the media circus bait. By not giving in to being baited by bigots and the media circus they need to survive. Ativan
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