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Post by Dani on Mar 19, 2015 2:03:15 GMT 8
Great, been running out of ideas for a check, thanks. My doctor and I have been working through a dosage of EV and a cycle that works for me. As far as the cycles go at first I was at two weeks (valleys spelled disaster), then 10 days (much better), now for the last few months every 7 days (for me, perfect). Dosage started at 20mg/14 days, then 20mg/10 days, now 15mg/7days (just an adjustment of cycle rather that dose). I feel very good, no peaks, no valleys, feminizing results very good, but here is where my question lies, I just had my first estradiol serum level done and its very high 881pg/ml, now before everyones yells EGAD, run to get it changed, here is why I believe its about 200+ higher than normal. I just had open hernia surgery and have had orders to lie flat as much as possible, I normally walk about 4 to 5 miles every night, so because I inject in my thigh, well theres been zero exercise to continue blood flow in the muscles across 2 injection cycles. So anyway thats the background info, heres the question: Assuming all is as I believe and it indeed returns to about what I think it will, is approx. 600pg/ml really too high? I know its way high according to the 'old' tables, but according to newer, they state values from 400 to 800pg/ml for mtf transition. My doctor listened to my reasoning and says well ok, have another serum done in three weeks and if it does not go down we should probably lengthen the cycle back to 10 days without changing the dosage, which I suppose is fine with me, its just I could use some input as to what current ideas are for the 400 to 800mg thing. OK, that about wraps that up, thanks to any and all who help with what they have heard, OR just want to give any ideas about anything, ok maybe not anything Thanks soooooo much, Dani EVERYTHING ABOVE IS MY OLD POST EXCELLENT NEWS: Just got my new level numbers, I am sooooooo satisfied! In only the short duration of becoming active again my Estradiol has dropped almost 50 points to 837pg/ml so I fully expect to be down to my goal 600+. The best though was my T level, 9 months ago it was between 700 and 800 and now it is 15 !!!!! It was tough to be in the dark during that time and thank you all for being here for me. My chest is all "a buzz" and I know why :-). So by doctor agreement everything will remain the same, dosage and injection cycle YAY!!! Dani
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 2:32:28 GMT 8
EXCELLENT NEWS: Just got my new level numbers, I am sooooooo satisfied! In only the short duration of becoming active again my Estradiol has dropped almost 50 points to 837pg/ml so I fully expect to be down to my goal 600+. The best though was my T level, 9 months ago it was between 700 and 800 and now it is 15 !!!!! It was tough to be in the dark during that time and thank you all for being here for me. My chest is all "a buzz" and I know why :-). So by doctor agreement everything will remain the same, dosage and injection cycle YAY!!! Dani Congratulations Dani, sounds like you're getting some girls! ( . )( . )
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Dani
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Post by Dani on Mar 19, 2015 3:24:05 GMT 8
Congratulations Dani, sounds like you're getting some girls! ( . )( . ) ( . )( . ) times B = soon to be C I just love math, I knew there was a reason I took alge 'bra'
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 5:36:53 GMT 8
Congratulations Dani, sounds like you're getting some girls! ( . )( . ) ( . )( . ) times B = soon to be C I just love math, I knew there was a reason I took alge 'bra'
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Dani
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Post by Dani on Apr 26, 2015 5:40:15 GMT 8
So let me do this: Does this look right? Look wrong? Close? Out of the Ballpark? Low= 20 to 60mg/month Med= 80 to 120mg/month High= 140 to ? Dani So nothing yet? No one? Out of the hundreds and hundreds of people on several "transgender" boards I've heard one 'kinda' maybe. It is no wonder so many people are medically frustrated and in the dark. Not only can one not get this answer from a Dr., but one cannot even get a straight answer from transgenders. Just freakin goobeldy gook and meaningless YMMV, yet everyone on all the boards speak in terms of "I'm on low dose", "I am now on a medium dose" on and on and on, but not ONE person will specifically say anything. If people in general are healthy, have good blood work ups, there should be at LEAST a somewhat specific dosage table for quality femininization, and the boundaries generally accepted. This is my last try.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 7:20:33 GMT 8
But the doses vary per your metabolic and absorption rates, as well as age.
My high dose could kill you. Or not.
E val is diff from.e cyp.
My advise, bloods every three weeks, get your serum range figured out, and stabilize.
But there is no one size fits all.
It's blood data, ccs, and injection frequency. Blood first, dose and freq. Second. Goal serums vary by endo, 0 to 100 low dose, 100.200 typical Mtf transitional, 200 to 400 highly aggressive transitional.
Mine are that over 400 level. That's petal to the floor transition. And those are serums not doses.
Stay well.
Trin.
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Post by Ayla on Apr 26, 2015 7:42:52 GMT 8
Ok, this is my info and my experience, but the effects are profound and, if not monitored, means you are playing with fire. There is no one, universal dosage that produces identical effect on different folk, ymmv really does hold true.
I am on low dose and this has varied from 100 mg of spiro and nil progynova to 200 mg of spiro and up to 4 mg of progynova. My point of equilibrium seems to shift but my endo encourages me to adjust dosages to achieve the psychological/emotional and physical results that work best for me (this was/is supplemented by therapy, hair removal, some surgery and change in presentation). Currently I am taking 100mg of spiro and 1mg of progynova but am usually best at 100mg of spiro and 2mg of Progynova. I have been on HRT for approx 4 of the last 5 years.
My hormone levels are closer to that of a female (pre menopausal) than those of a male, but I am disinterested in this, as being non binary, I just want to deal with my dysphoria and to accept and to express who I am, and I know that I am neither male nor female.
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 26, 2015 7:49:07 GMT 8
Serum levels are what count, and still the results are going to very from person to person with the same serum levels. It is dependent on receptors, like Spiro blocks T receptors, effectively lowering it's availability, but not the actual levels. As for the doses, it depends on the delivery system and type you are using. Here is a rough equivalency chart for menopausal, so don't let the low med high trick you. The doses used for trans HRT can be much higher than these to get the serum levels you want. I'm in the med range on this chart, but I'm considered to be in the middle of the low dose that trans people refer to. Even low dose to transitional doses is subjective. Along with a T blocker, the effects are much different than without it. Read the crap above the numbers. I looked for a bit and didn't come up with anything much better, but it gives an idea. It is the serum levels and how you are handling them, there are a lot of indicators that can restrict the doses. I did a simple search for estradiol equivalency, you could do a more refined search for what you are looking for exactly. : portal.mah.harvard.edu/cms/content/B7ACBE692D3340DD9CD308883BC9750B/C8FBA664C44E4E9797A5069E4A8FF7F4.pdfI did look using transgender in the search, but nothing of interest came up on the first page. So this is somewhat of an equivalency between products, serum levels are the measurement, and still for various reasons, YMMV.
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Post by Ayla on Apr 26, 2015 8:17:50 GMT 8
Serum levels are what count, and still the results are going to very from person to person with the same serum levels. It is dependent on receptors, like Spiro blocks T receptors, effectively lowering it's availability, but not the actual levels. As for the doses, it depends on the delivery system and type you are using. Here is a rough equivalency chart for menopausal, so don't let the low med high trick you. The doses used for trans HRT can be much higher than these to get the serum levels you want. I'm in the med range on this chart, but I'm considered to be in the middle of the low dose that trans people refer to. Even low dose to transitional doses is subjective. Along with a T blocker, the effects are much different than without it. Read the crap above the numbers. I looked for a bit and didn't come up with anything much better, but it gives an idea. It is the serum levels and how you are handling them, there are a lot of indicators that can restrict the doses. I did a simple search for estradiol equivalency, you could do a more refined search for what you are looking for exactly. : portal.mah.harvard.edu/cms/content/B7ACBE692D3340DD9CD308883BC9750B/C8FBA664C44E4E9797A5069E4A8FF7F4.pdfI did look using transgender in the search, but nothing of interest came up on the first page. So this is somewhat of an equivalency between products, serum levels are the measurement, and still for various reasons, YMMV. Dani Good advice here. I have also attached further info from the transgender links thread on these boards which provide further insight, feminising regimens, different drugs, different delivery systems etc www.g7ucl.fsnet.co.uk/hormones.htm - Hormone treatment for MTF Transsexuals www.transgendercare.com/medical/resources/tmf_program/default.asp - Dr Carl Bushong - Medical Feminizing Program safe travels Aisla
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Dani
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Post by Dani on Apr 26, 2015 13:42:46 GMT 8
Yes, I've read all these and hundreds of others, these are archaic to say the least (Please no offense meant). Let me break some of this down first.
Julie, I understand these are powerful and NO they do not kill as we have been led to believe, I am not misusing mine and I have been under a doctors care from the begining. Blood workups in full, on a continuing basis. DVT, heart complications etc. are now known to be false! Liver/yes, if oral doseages are being used.
Trinity, I have gone through injection cycle changes until I hit what I need for me in terms of steadyness. My serum levels range in the 800's, no ill effect at all, and from what I am beginning to understand I am at the "upper end of low" range. Dysphoria has long since been taken care of, now my goal is full on transition.
Aisla, I will check out the last two links later as moving away while in a reply loses the reply. The first link though is very old.
OK, so now just some info: I use 15mg of estradiol valerate IM every 7 days, serum levels as mentioned range in the 800's pg/ml. A cis woman can range from a couple hundred to 75,00pg/ml. Fortuneately these super high levels of estrogen has not caused any ill effects, or childbirth would have ended thousands of years ago.
The University of California San Francisco Trans Health has determined that ESTROGEN DOES NOT CAUSE SECONDARY HEALTH RISKS. It is for this very reason that the university doctors do not even test estrogen serum levels, these vary to such a degree that to do so is tantamount to holding the transgender patient's hrt hostage. They screen ONLY for the patients overall health. The very old studies that to this day doctors still use are based on forms of estrogen that used to kill women, and are not even used today. Full bio-identical studies have never been completed.
I have a new doctor now, as I sent my last one her termination letter, for reasons I can explain later if anyone is interested. My new doctor is very experienced, considerate, compassionate, and has a transgender daughter, she is in the process of training new doctors. I have a feeling all this will be cleared up very soon. HERE is why my asking is important: We need relevant information, many transgenders have fallen victim to the old rhetoric that doctors have used for too long, and this is only natural for people who value their health. Who wants to put their life in jeopardy? Can generations of MALE doctors who valued the life of a woman on the same par as a vet be counted on to overcome this bias and want good transgender healthcare?
My question is for only one reason, even if it is a generalized one, we need a stable dosage table that gives the transgender a basis for understanding how to talk to their doctor about an hrt regimen. Then the doctor can use this information added to the patients own medical history to determine a method of progress. Dani
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Post by EchelonHunt on Apr 26, 2015 15:15:45 GMT 8
Dani,
Low estrogen levels: 10pg/ml - 20pg/ml Normal estrogen levels: 149pg/ml - 210pg/ml High estrogen levels: Anything in excess of 200pg/ml
Pregnancy, menstrual cycles and menopause can influence the estrogen and other hormone levels. Because of this, a "normal" level could be anywhere from 50 to 400 pg/ml.
www.newhealthguide.org/Normal-Estrogen-Levels.html <- I got the above information from here.
All that aside, you cannot forget that progesterone, testosterone, LH, FSH are also crucially important to factor in.
You could put together a dosage table but bear in mind, your estrogen levels of 800 may be heaven for you could be another person's hell, sure, there may not be any physical side effects but mentally and dysphoria-wise, it's a whole other ball-game... especially for those who identify as non-binary.
We are all different, we all react to hormones differently. If you do make a table, I think it would be wise to have an * at the bottom to clarify that this is not a "One-size-fits-all" table, similar to how one's dietary requirements may be higher or lower depending on their age, weight, fitness, etc.
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Dani
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Post by Dani on Apr 26, 2015 23:57:54 GMT 8
Hi EchelonHunt,
Respectfully, these are far far outdated, not only are they outdated, it is these very statistics that the medical community uses to reinforce their old horrific past, in order to keep these same ideals alive.
These numbers reflect an extreme "body at rest" type of scenario, and would elicit the barest minumum of femininization regimens. These commonly found websites offer up only the "mainstream" viewpoint, the one in which at least for the medical community helps to guarantee the following: a system that does appear controversial, keeps them safe from critical opinions from their peers, continues to maintain a safety buffer zone as far as putting their career in jeopardy, and probably worst of all it does not require "any" out of the box thinking.
I have been researching this subject on almost a daily basis for over a year and a half, reading anywhere from an hour or so to up to 5 or 6 hours. Pubmed research papers etc.. One thing that has been invaluable at least for my purpose, is the degree I have in Organic Chemistry and a couple side degrees. At a certain point the beginnings of a new picture began to emerge, one that after following extensive reading, began to illuminate a glaring spectacle of coverups, misinformation, and in general one that does "not" have good intentions for not only women, but transgenders in this age.
The light at the end of the tunnel for me was when I spoke with one of the doctors at the University of California San Francisco Trans Health Care Clinic and he confirmed my hopes, fears, and only partially formed theories. We are on the doorstep of a new age in respect to transgender health care and it does not depend on the stale information that has kept our community in the dark.
In respect to the parameters you mentioned regarding biochemistry factors, yes I agree, with these in mind, we still desperately need a new dosage table to be used as common ground to allow for informed conversation between doctor and patient in regards to dysphoria "and" femininization. Doctors and the A.M.A has played on our fears far too long, (to the point that we have adopted it as our own)it is time for us to demand competent, informed, respectful, and safe practices. Dani
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Dani
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Dani began a new chemical journey on 6-25-2014
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Gender: Female wings unfolded, flight is now my nature.
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Dani
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Post by Dani on Apr 27, 2015 0:15:47 GMT 8
As long as I took the time to do that, I should probably also mention this. In the exhaustive research I've done, I am versed enough in the scientific method to insure no fulfillment of my "own bias." This was indeed difficult due to being invested in the center of my personal hormone replacement storm. Dani
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 27, 2015 0:50:10 GMT 8
OK, do you have any insight into information that is more current and up to date? Any conclusions so far? Doesn't have to be complete, but could you share some of the more informed data? Are you going to be putting what you have found into something more meaningful than the usual search's bring up? Any studies that have drawn conclusions that are meaningful to trans people, any ongoing that we should be watching for? It's not hard to see that much of the information that is available just doesn't answer trans related questions. Any good links to better information that does relate better to trans out there we can take a look at? *still wondering about that plutonium...
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Dani
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Dani began a new chemical journey on 6-25-2014
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Gender: Female wings unfolded, flight is now my nature.
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Dani
Dani began a new chemical journey on 6-25-2014
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Post by Dani on Apr 27, 2015 6:52:58 GMT 8
Ahhh too funny, yeah I'm still holding on to that damn hot handful of fission, "although" you just might turn out to be a good candidate to give it to. As to your questions, well that's a difficult one. I did not approach this thing with that "I'm doing a paper type of recording." I did save links but it was only until the information was concrete in my head by way of confirming past finds and the picture just seemed to get a bit more solid. The reason for this is that I was only on an informational journey so as to be best informed in "my" hrt. It was not until later when info from different tangents began to click, so to speak. There is no "one" specific location to throw out there, because I was just taking/discarding/reusing/applying. A good portion of my time was centered on searching out a "sort of" safe methodology for _____________ (will not go into this) without overloading receptors. I'm not saying due to it being incomplete, and has abuse potential. Others may or may not help until much later. As far as dosage is concerned, the table I included here is an "upper end" slice of the overall things I found out. At first long ago, I thought the Tom Wadell model may be of help, although I believe this is an example of "overshoot", and errs on the side of too much E (and here is where it gets tricky, this may NOT be.) The position for myself and the reason for trying to find an somewhat "reputable" table is to use for comparison once I see my own Dr. in a couple weeks or so. I am still making up my mind whether to make this more than likely last jump in dosage, from 15mg/7 days to 20mg/7 days, this should put me just into the beginnings of medium dosage. Like I said above, she is very up to date, and has incorporated the UCSF Trans Health cross gender protocols, so I will find out soon. Here is the link for them: www.transhealth.ucsf.eduI certainly hope that is a beginning, I deleted the above work I'm doing as this could be dangerous for experimentation, playing this sort of close to the vest (uh or blouse), I do not want to be the one providing unproved information. We really are at the edge of a new era in hrt and for myself well....it will come too late, dont get me wrong though, I've got nice things happenin :-), but others just may have pretty cool horizons ahead. Any other questions, I will be glad to help as much as I can/or be willing to do. Love to All Dani
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