TDude
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Post by TDude on Nov 27, 2014 7:45:28 GMT 8
I may have misunderstood your post. I thought from the last line I read it as you where still experimenting with your femenine and masculine side, but I guess what you say is you identifying as MTF feel misread as something ells in the community, was this right understood?
p.s what do you mean by putting your feet in your mouth?
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Luna
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Post by Luna on Nov 27, 2014 20:33:32 GMT 8
Foot in mouth = saying something offensive without meaning to.
Too many disparate parts in the LGBT community with too many conflicting agendas or blind zealots. Some portions of the community would rather cut off their nose to spite others so to speak.
NB is a difficult concept for many to understand. Hormonally, from my last assay, I am female. Socially, I present male for many reasons. Some people won't get my reasoning, and it'd be a waste of breath to try.
I had a quick browse through some of teh DRAMAZ, and it seemed to me that certain persons only had one tool, a hammer, and everything looks like a nail if that's all you've got...
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Post by Taka on Nov 27, 2014 21:14:44 GMT 8
haha... i've seen enough of drama queening from guys as well. that looks somewhat bizarre, and even moreso to me. i don't get the point of it at all. i can get angry enough to say horrible things that are way beside the pointbut i usually prefer to discuss matter rather than person.
jamie, i don't get what you're trying to say at all. you may be mtf or something, but i see much more rock in you. girls are typically afraid of being seen acting friendly with the wrong people, and criticize each other for doing this. seems it's connected with interests, sexual preferences, and all sorts of things that have nothong to so with the real reason to interact with people who are different in some way. but you don't seem like this at all to me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2014 21:51:53 GMT 8
Foot in mouth = saying something offensive without meaning to. Too many disparate parts in the LGBT community with too many conflicting agendas or blind zealots. Some portions of the community would rather cut off their nose to spite others so to speak. NB is a difficult concept for many to understand. Hormonally, from my last assay, I am female. Socially, I present male for many reasons. Some people won't get my reasoning, and it'd be a waste of breath to try. I had a quick browse through some of teh DRAMAZ, and it seemed to me that certain persons only had one tool, a hammer, and everything looks like a nail if that's all you've got... And then here I am living a life just like yours, though I think you do it so gracefully. Thank God you came over Luna.
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Asche
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Post by Asche on Nov 28, 2014 0:29:44 GMT 8
OK so if the other post comes up it wasn't finished. But Asche and TDude. Us MTF and even me as non binary MTF are female psychologically. You guys whether FTM or non binary FTM are gonna' think male. We really can't help it. My experience with MTFs is that a lot of them still relate in ways similar to cis men. And I think what I find refreshing about the FTMs I know is that aspects of how they relate are like how cis women relate. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Trans or not, we are trained in our formative years to relate according to our birth gender, and however much we may reject that training or feel that it never took, traces remain. Growing up male, what I learned was that you always have to be wary with other boys/men. You always have to be prepared to deal with them as rivals, if not enemies; even if you're on the same team today, tomorrow you might be on opposite sides. Your loyalty to Teh Team takes precedence over any personal connection. It's why your best friend can fire you -- "sorry, but we had to let some people go." It's why your supposed friends will turn on you if you defect to Femininity. It's "bros before hos", and the minute you stop adhering to the Guy Code, you've abandoned the Guy Team and gone over to being a "ho".
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Post by Taka on Nov 28, 2014 3:40:53 GMT 8
but at least you're acknowledged as "not guy".
trying to go the other way, men are still convinced they can fuck some sense into the poor confused girl, women still try to dictate how women shall be. i think women are the only ones who'd pay a guy to rape their friend while they watch, as punishment for breaking some girl type of deal.
rivalry seems better than the control structures that women like to enfore. a good victim would never be fired from her job. she'd be kept there for their little games of abuse and harassment. unless the boss is a good no bullshit woman.
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Post by Ayla on Nov 28, 2014 5:19:00 GMT 8
its okay, by giving yourself the space you need, you will get the chance of exploring yourself and having the time you need to find out more. We got a person in our group, I first meet her as typical Mtf, now a month ago she annonced that she did not feel good being just female and she wanted to be male also. So now she sometimes come as female sometimes as male, She don't complitely know what she identify as, she call herself a transvestite so far, but she just want to have time exploring her identity, I think the best is to just provide that room and let people experiment and be honest. It don't look like it came up. But I am MTF non binary. Oh I may be F inside, the outside may seem M but at the root I am Female and would never ever in my life define or see someone other than what they are inside. Yeah, the outside is the first impression we get. Human nature no matter how much it sux. We are all human but... when someone talks we should listen too. Appearance is one thing and I have had to put my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion and I am not above an apology. No matter what. But I have been called a sissy by some in the LGBT spectrum. OK so I am a sissy. Actually I am MTF nonbinary so sissy is kind of an insult. Not to me too much. I thought, "OMG. I'm finally there." But unfortunately it wasn't a compliment as much as an insult. Why? I know I cant judge other LGBs from this one opinion but it still hurt though. Because aren't we all supposed to be on the same boat. Even if it is the Titanic. Sometimes it just hurts. Jamie
I think I sense where you are coming from. The less 'masculine' you are physically and emotionally (hrt driven open expression and more volatile and richer emotional connection) then even before you start changing your clothing, you may start to confuse others. Most folk still conflate gender and sexuality, they still use clumsy terms and think they are talking in one context but the term is received as gendering. I guess what I am trying to say is that an androgynous MAAB non binary is often seen to be a feminine guy, a gay guy and attract terms like effeminate (which may be meant as insult) or a sissy. For a FAAB who presents as androgynous, confusion is less likely and insults/hurtful comments are less likely. On the other forum Suzifrommd openly talks about her need to transition MTF before recognizing that her identity was non binary and choosing to present as androgynous. I think that she says that this path was the best one for her as it was easier to communicate her gender.
Sorry if I have missed the point and it is just a confused and irrelevant ramble. (Didn't sleep that well last night, too much turkey)
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 21:33:17 GMT 8
Foot in mouth = saying something offensive without meaning to.
Too many disparate parts in the LGBT community with too many conflicting agendas or blind zealots. Some portions of the community would rather cut off their nose to spite others so to speak. NB is a difficult concept for many to understand. Hormonally, from my last assay, I am female. Socially, I present male for many reasons. Some people won't get my reasoning, and it'd be a waste of breath to try. I had a quick browse through some of teh DRAMAZ, and it seemed to me that certain persons only had one tool, a hammer, and everything looks like a nail if that's all you've got... Exactly what I meant. I have this incessant drive to say Sir and Ma'am. I have called a Ma'am a Sir on occasion and have called a Sir a Ma'am on occasion. Usually on the phone. If they correct me, I apologize. Nothing meant by it, hell it happens to me. I don't get offended but hate to think I caused offense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 21:53:14 GMT 8
It don't look like it came up. But I am MTF non binary. Oh I may be F inside, the outside may seem M but at the root I am Female and would never ever in my life define or see someone other than what they are inside. Yeah, the outside is the first impression we get. Human nature no matter how much it sux. We are all human but... when someone talks we should listen too. Appearance is one thing and I have had to put my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion and I am not above an apology. No matter what. But I have been called a sissy by some in the LGBT spectrum. OK so I am a sissy. Actually I am MTF nonbinary so sissy is kind of an insult. Not to me too much. I thought, "OMG. I'm finally there." But unfortunately it wasn't a compliment as much as an insult. Why? I know I cant judge other LGBs from this one opinion but it still hurt though. Because aren't we all supposed to be on the same boat. Even if it is the Titanic. Sometimes it just hurts. Jamie
I think I sense where you are coming from. The less 'masculine' you are physically and emotionally (hrt driven open expression and more volatile and richer emotional connection) then even before you start changing your clothing, you may start to confuse others. Most folk still conflate gender and sexuality, they still use clumsy terms and think they are talking in one context but the term is received as gendering. I guess what I am trying to say is that an androgynous MAAB non binary is often seen to be a feminine guy, a gay guy and attract terms like effeminate (which may be meant as insult) or a sissy. For a FAAB who presents as androgynous, confusion is less likely and insults/hurtful comments are less likely. On the other forum Suzifrommd openly talks about her need to transition MTF before recognizing that her identity was non binary and choosing to present as androgynous. I think that she says that this path was the best one for her as it was easier to communicate her gender.
Sorry if I have missed the point and it is just a confused and irrelevant ramble. (Didn't sleep that well last night, too much turkey)
Safe travels
Aisla
Yeah. Its hard to explain. And after rereading my post, talk about a ramble, it even confused me. But I have been called one name or another spanning the whole spectrum. Sometimes even from others in the spectrum. I expect being called the names from cis people and feeling exclusion from them. But from others that are in the same spectrum is where it kind of bothers me. If I know them and are friends and it is just a little joking then no problem. But when it is meant to be mean and hurtful and not just friendly joking that is when it hurts. Especially if I don't know them and they don't know me.
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TessaJames
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Post by TessaJames on Nov 29, 2014 4:14:33 GMT 8
When I was younger and first sought out people and answers I looked to the LGBTQ community. Heck they didn't even call it that in the 60s as there were only gay and lesbian people and they were not welcoming a questioning bisexual person. I longed for community and solidarity and found pervasive lists of who or what was unacceptable. Remember the personal adds?; No femmes, fats or twinks desired. Drag was only for the stage and wearing a dress was a good way to get tossed out of the club.
Life is so much better now but some few judges remain and have let me know of their displeasure at my non binary existence. The vast majority of people treat each other very well but the worst critics (to my face) have been transgender woman or gay men. There are people who feel the need to police the borders lest some of us less usual suspects get in.
As a humanist I am intrigued by the concept of circles of support. Some will draw their circle tight to include or exclude friends, family, similar beliefs or behaviors. I like to make bigger circles that bring all of humanity in.
One big family works best for this girl and that includes YOU.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 5:05:38 GMT 8
Exactly Julie. Anyone calls me a sissy here I will give a big thank you. Hell I am a sissy. When friends are joking good naturedly as compared with someone you don't even know that are in the whole LGBT spectrum then it kind of hurts a little. I'll never let them know and say thank you sarcastically and then ask what they are and why they think they are so much better than me or anyone else. A lot of times it does shut them down. A couple of times they have turned aggressive. But... What can you do?
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Anato
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Post by Anato on Dec 4, 2014 12:02:34 GMT 8
This forum and susan's seem to accept me as I am. Most groups Ive been a part of irl seem alright with my situation...as long as I dont say _______ fill in the blank. Not too long ago I went to RL trans support groups fairly often and despite telling people I was gender questioning there was always this air of expectation that I would transition. People would ask me if I preferred being masculine or feminine, which made me feel cornered like I had to pick one or the other. Or I would say I considered testosterone treatments but that I wouldnt want them permanently (I wanted to go middle of the road, not full transition) and the room would go silent.
There was one time I told a couple people in a private conversation that I felt female but wanted a more masculine body sometimes and I didn't know what that meant. Well out of the corner of my eye I saw a transman looking at me in disgust. I ignored him and kept talking. The women I was speaking to accepted me completely and even revelled in how awesome in was that so many different kinds of people exist in the world of gender. Still, the look I got from that guy stays with me.
Way back in the early stages of my gender questioning, I used to join ftm spaces and talk about how I wanted a more masculine body. See if anyone there was like me. Despite the fact that I made it clear I was gender questioning (therefore possibly still female or another gender) and despite the fact that they told me that was fine...ftms would vent in these spaces how they hated dealing with women who wanted to go on T or get top surgery. That being trans wasn't a game, that women like this mocked their situation, and women like this brought out all their insecurities. At first I sat in on these kinds of conversations and let them vent thinking "Well I can't hold it against them for just saying what they feel. Its not a personal attack against me, and I can see how gender nonconforming women could make a transguy feel uncomfortable." And I tried to let it go. But I couldnt. They were talking about me. It made me realize that if I ever told them I identified as female they'd be directing these kinds of feelings at me. And I just felt so guilty and awful I couldn't bring myself to visit those spaces anymore, or even talk to the friends I'd made there.
It was around that time that I quit going to any trans support group for a while. I felt awful about myself and hated that I'd been stupid enough to question my gender identity when I clearly wasn't like so many trans people. But over time, the feelings came back. Less strong but they're there, and I still have urges to be more male sometimes. I couldn't talk to any cis people about this, couldn't afford a therapist. So I came back to online support groups. I still don't talk to most of my old friends in the trans community. I'm still embarrassed.
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Post by Ayla on Dec 4, 2014 20:23:57 GMT 8
This forum and susan's seem to accept me as I am. Most groups Ive been a part of irl seem alright with my situation...as long as I dont say _______ fill in the blank.... .... I quit going to any trans support group for a while. I felt awful about myself and hated that I'd been stupid enough to question my gender identity when I clearly wasn't like so many trans people. But over time, the feelings came back. Less strong but they're there, and I still have urges to be more male sometimes. I couldn't talk to any cis people about this, couldn't afford a therapist. So I came back to online support groups. I still don't talk to most of my old friends in the trans community. I'm still embarrassed. I think that when we realise that we are not really identical to any other person, and nor should we be, that we become kinder to ourselves. The journey is really about understanding yourself, accepting, celebrating and expressing yourself without accepting ill fitting labels, assumptions and discomfort. I am m2me and proud of it. The more folk that I share this with, the less embarrassed I am. Safe travels Aisla
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Post by Taka on Dec 5, 2014 16:56:51 GMT 8
It was around that time that I quit going to any trans support group for a while. I felt awful about myself and hated that I'd been stupid enough to question my gender identity when I clearly wasn't like so many trans people. But over time, the feelings came back. Less strong but they're there, and I still have urges to be more male sometimes. I couldn't talk to any cis people about this, couldn't afford a therapist. So I came back to online support groups. I still don't talk to most of my old friends in the trans community. I'm still embarrassed. you are you, anon. there's no more shame in being whatever you are, than being binary transman.
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Post by ThePhoenix on Dec 6, 2014 5:15:51 GMT 8
I am unaware of the existence of an LGBTQIA community. I supposed that means I feel excluded. But what I find is that there is an L community, a G community, a B community, and so on. Sometimes they come together and collaborate as an alliance. Sometimes they are quite adversarial. The LGB part is more likely to form alliances among themselves than with the TQ part because the L, G, and B have issues stemming from sexual orientation, but gender identity concerns are simply not a part of their lives. They often care little about the T and Q because TQ issues are about gender identity--a different issue.
I belong to a group that is mostly made up of gay men. I'm their token trans* person. But these folks tend to be very welcoming allies of trans* people. Not all gay groups are.
When I first came into the trans* community, I found myself excluded because my pre-transition appearance was not conforming enough (I am one of those strange people for whom transition made me more passable than when I was trying to live as a cis person). Now I'm kind of a local celebrity, so I'm welcome anywhere I go In TQ spaces, barring a handful of people who happen to hate me. But I still get criticized except that now it's because I am too gender conforming and trans* people don't think that's right.
It's kind of strange. I guess the bottom line is that I see a lot of exclusion.
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