Jamie Quinn
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Post by Jamie Quinn on Apr 29, 2019 7:45:37 GMT 8
I’ve got a question about terminology:
If I identify as nb but not trans, but I still see trans-non-binary as a valid identity, what does that make me? I’m not cis-non-binary, because I presume that would imply that I’m intersex, which I’m not. If the term is just “non-binary”, then that would make trans-non-binary a “special” or “not-the-normal” kind of non-binary, which would be a bit exclusionary. Should there be a term? Is there already a term? Am I overthinking everything?
EDIT: There is also the option to say that all non-intersex non-binary people are automatically trans. I personally haven’t taken the label of trans because I feel like it would cheapen the meaning of the word given that I present as cis most of the time pretty comfortably; it’s just get from being my whole gender identity.
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Post by charley83 on Apr 29, 2019 9:20:03 GMT 8
I consider myself non binary but not really trans. I think it just depends on how you perceive it. Yes non binary is under the trans umbrella but for me I always considered being trans as living as a specific gender that is different from the gender you were assigned to at birth. I dont feel like I fall under that because I dont really live as a man but I'm not fully female. I am more andro than anything. I know some of us consider ourselfs trans and thats just preferebce but no matter how you identify or want to be labled its ok. There is no right or wrong way to be who you are and whatever feels right to you is all that should matter.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 29, 2019 9:50:48 GMT 8
I’ve got a question about terminology: If I identify as nb but not trans, but I still see trans-non-binary as a valid identity, what does that make me? I’m not cis-non-binary, because I presume that would imply that I’m intersex, which I’m not. If the term is just “non-binary”, then that would make trans-non-binary a “special” or “not-the-normal” kind of non-binary, which would be a bit exclusionary. Should there be a term? Is there already a term? Am I overthinking everything? EDIT: There is also the option to say that all non-intersex non-binary people are automatically trans. I personally haven’t taken the label of trans because I feel like it would cheapen the meaning of the word given that I present as cis most of the time pretty comfortably; it’s just get from being my whole gender identity. Yah, overthinking somewhat, but it makes your awareness of NB a little more finite. But the trans umbrella has other umbrellas under it, transsexual, or transgender as they seem to think they can take that for themselves, is one. The entire trans umbrella is actually the transgender one, and then it breaks down from there, and NB is one of those. NB isn't a thing so much as it is just the label for the group of people who predominantly feel like they aren't binary. So I suppose there can be transgender NB just as there can be cis NB, but going past the label of NB has a bazillion tangents of labels that people like to use and in a lot of cases are simply their descriptions of themselves more than it is a label that specifies their gender type, which is what the umbrellas are about. It's like the genderqueer label, that's also one that goes under the NB umbrella. I could go on and on about all the labels that people use, but it's their personal preference, but it doesn't effect the main umbrella at all if it is simply a description of some made up label for themselves. Unless there is a sufficient number of people who identify with any given label, then it is just one of the labels under one of the umbrellas. I personally just use NB as my designation and as the label I use in the conversations that require it. I prefer the idea of a designation to a label, labels are for things and a designation is more of a placement of say a person in regards to other persons. It can be confusing when thinking through all the labels that there are out there, and some can be under more than one umbrella, and those can be under another one. Its just a way that people use to describe where they are, and there is a cis umbrella that has its own umbrellas under it. S I suppose a person can be NB and be under the transgender umbrella that is like a not cis umbrella, and also be under the cis umbrella as well. Truth is, there are so many people who identify as cis and yet reject the standards of gender at the same time, the realization that gender is just a throw word and you can be any that you want. You do have a sex and that gets complicated with intersex, but it really isn't complicated at all, just ask the people here who are intersex. Gender is a made up concept that for some reason the squarely cis belong to unflinching groups that define people as only one of two that they have taken gender and use their strict ideas of the universe that it is the same as their sex. They won't budge from that idiocy anymore than the flat earthers wil budge from theirs. Are there flat univeresers out there as well? How does that work? Same thing as gender being defined by sex. Gender is what you want it to be for you, and it isn't a choice, but you can have realizations that what you thought was yours isn't as accurate as you thought it was. You can't make your sex a choice, you will forever have the X's and Y's that you started with, and look at those to see what the baseline of intersex is. But regardless, if you think your gender is this or that, then it is, and you fit under some umbrella and that goes under the human umbrella at some point. But given the confusion that some have at the realization they aren't as cis binary as they always thought, it seems like NB has infinite labels and ways they are used. That is just the infinite ways that we are all different, yet the same. NB is a same, after that you can just go for it because it isn't restricted at all, the important thing is to know that we are all alike more than we are different. Umbrellas have a use, but in the end, they are just arbitrary labels that for now are the ones used by different groups that can and do refine the description of that group. It isn't that much different than political designations, there are factions all over with those, but here wer narrow it down to having enough signatures to be on the ballot, so when you vote, it is for a much bigger group than the one you identify with, which could be your own group of one if you wanted. NB is a group of people,, you can identify that way to keep it simple, or you can have a designation you like under the NB umbrella. For now, the I suppose is true cis NB have their umbrella and it is still to far away because of bigotry to be able to meld together as it should, the word trans or trans anything gender wise just scares the bahjeebazs out of some people. But fear of the unknown is a simple thing up to a point, some of those bigots are over the edge of having a mental disorder or two or more. But gender as you want it to be isn't even close to being a disorder, but dysphoria that stems from bigotry is, bigotry spawns all sorts of disorders for all kinds of people. So until they can find the fix for the bigot disorders that could be full time for all psychologists and psychiatrists, the cis NB umbrella is over there and the NB umbrella here is where it has always been...
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 29, 2019 9:54:41 GMT 8
And the NB umbrella is growing and should get to the point that it is it's own umbrella apart from the cis and trans umbrellas, I'm fine with people considering themselves as cis NB and they are certainly welcome here, the idea that we are a part of the trans umbrella is not the thing that lot of people think it should be, but then the cis one is way over there, so until the two come together with the understanding that we are who we are and screw the matrix ideas of gender...
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Jamie Quinn
New Member
Posts: 27
Gender: Androgyne
Presentation: Masculine
Pronouns: They/Their/Them
Pronouns: He/Him, She/Her
Orientation: Queer
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cptheywire
Androgyne
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They/Their/Them
He/Him, She/Her
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Post by Jamie Quinn on Apr 29, 2019 10:48:11 GMT 8
All your responses are interesting to me in that they feel almost obvious now that you say them. I guess I’m realising just how thoroughly I’ve internalised the idea of a gender matrix. Though that being said, I suppose on another level I’m hoping that there is some kind of consistent structure for me to figure out if only to give a linguistic framework to talk about something that is an otherwise nebulous concept. I think what seems to have eluded me is how the designation “trans” actually interacts with the label “NB”. I understand binary trans, and I understand NB, but not fully how those labels actually talk to each other.
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Post by charley83 on Apr 29, 2019 11:09:31 GMT 8
Trans is used as a term to describe a person who doesnt identify as the gender they were assigned at birth. Being binary trans is essentially someone who was born male and identifies as female or born female and identifies as male. Now NB trans for me is someone who identifies somewhere along the gender spectrum or is even fluid in thier gender rather than identifying as only the gender they were assigned at birth.
I was born female and I still identify and use she/her pronouns but I dont present as female majority of the time. I feel more comfortable as either masculine presenting or androgynous. I still wear makeup but dress very masculine.
The best way I have found to describe myself is bigender. I like some things about being female and some things about being male and I feel both genders. I've never been comfortable being very feminine or very masculine. I need to have a little bit of both genders presenting to be comfortable. I will admit I do have dysphoria with my chest but not to the point of having a complete removal but I am considering a reduction.
So that's my take on things
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 29, 2019 11:31:06 GMT 8
Assigned gender at birth... You are assigned a sex really, it's the matrix that assumes your gender is the same and some demand that it is. As early as three yrs old, gender comes into play for kids, that is usually about the earliest they will understand some of it and make up their mind. The concept of gender assigned at birth is one that gets referenced to a lot, but reality is, gender hasn't yet formed in them, although there is some ideas that you are wired for the gender you choose, but there is also the ideas that you aren't. Either way, even if you aren't, in a three yr old the concept is just who they are, they do a lot of the same comparisons of genders as they are presents to them and pick and choose and try on for size until they have that realization they are who they are. An infant isn't interested in gender at all, they are too busy and for those three yrs they very slowly gather information about gender and pretty much have little idea about the differences in sex. So it isn't that concept that triggers anything, but a lot of times the preference to wear the others clothes comes into play, same with toys and even who they prefer to hang out with. Left on their own, the who they are and what gender means to them just solidifies despite any and all attempts to keep them the same sex. Thats where the wiring part comes in, but still they aren't so sure about that, it might develop as they grow and process information. Kids seem to have the same wiring for all things until around three, so it's debatable about whether there even is wiring at birth, there is so much going on in there just getting ready to be born, it's mainly sex that is taken care of, the brain is the brain either way, the same. So assigned gender at birth is techno not possible, but sex is, gender is never assigned, it is a realization and it may be wiring at any time, but once the realization takes effect, there is no turning it back. Just like conversion therapy won't work, and to those who think it does that are cis binary without a clue, have them try it on themselves, they won't, they will tell you it won't work on them,, but anyone else it will. So take that Pence, go get your conversion therapy and prove to me it works while you have to dress in heels and likely that dominatrix whip and storm trooper hat, because you are that kind of asshole, so why not?
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Post by Leena on Apr 30, 2019 1:28:14 GMT 8
You may be overthinking it. Really, these labels have stressed me out quite a lot in the past, but finding the right label doesn't really help all that much.
I've mainly been going with genderfluid, but I also very much am transgender and have pretty bad dysphoria. I will fully transition eventually, and once I do whether I will still consider myself genderfluid remains to be seen.
So some binary trans folks don't like that non-binary people use transgender and some non-binary people don't label themselves transgender. Arguing about language isn't really all that helpful to anyone. This is really quite harmful to those that are both trans and non-binary, and those that are questioning. It's all really mostly a matter of how you see yourself and how you want others to see you. Others aren't going to totally understand anyway, at least most of them, but these labels do have a purpose in quickly conveying things that are more complex.
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Post by Becky on Apr 30, 2019 2:22:08 GMT 8
To me, it is really important to remember that the "labels" are for you, not for others. They help you identify how you feel and how you want to express yourself, and also help you to connect to others who may be the same way. Cis folks often don't understand why we have so many labels, because they think the labels are there to help them understand our whole group. It just doesn't work that way.
In my opinion, "trans" means that what is on the inside doesn't match what is on the outside. This means that a person with any gender dysphoria, no matter how small, is transgender. I use the label for myself, because I feel almost completely feminine on the inside, but see a man every time I look in the mirror. I wish I had female curves and sizable breasts, and wish I didn't have any body hair, but I don't want bottom surgery. I still think I'm trans because of my dysphoria, but in a non-binary way.
My wife has been totally okay with me calling myself "non-binary," but nearly exploded when I slipped and said "Happy Transgender Day of Visibility." She said "You ARE NOT transgender!"
The nuances of transgender identities are often lost on cisgender folks. <3
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Post by Trinity on Apr 30, 2019 3:26:18 GMT 8
I think what seems to have eluded me is how the designation “trans” actually interacts with the label “NB”. I understand binary trans, and I understand NB, but not fully how those labels actually talk to each other. Been busy and been sitting this one out. I'm usually fascinated by the inability for binary to understand nb and sometimes also nb not understanding binary. And then theres folk that can't understand why nb would transition, because they think that if you transition, you are binary. IMO, the truth is, we all are different, have different needs, and are basically under the same umbrella, the Non Cis. That seems to unify, other things seem to separate. I had a short discussion with a shrink the other day at my check up, and told her that nb trans is not understood, that nb trans hide being nb out of fear of not getting their hormones or surgeries. My own original diagnosis was bogus, they classified me as autogynophilic, because they needed a compartment to dump me in and they didn't have a nonbinary one that had acute dysphoria so that was what was used to get me my hormones. I didn't care much. I have another letter now with the true diagnosis, which they called a nonbinary transgender woman, and clearly stated that I have gender dysphoria, which I do, but its not the same as binary trans dysphoria. How does trans interact with the label NB? Well, NB is to me not a label, its a fact, off the binary. And trans is also a fact, I got a new body and now I can stand looking in the mirror. And I am not confined to anything, my rule is to be true, thats all that matters to me, is to be true. So how do they talk to each other? Like a symphony, like woodwinds and basses and flutes and trumpets and violins, taking turns on the melody and supporting each other, we took a rock band and made it a symphony and then added in the synths and the vocals, there is no limit, and the music is simultanieous and one. But that idea of only playing one horn, bass or treble, is bogus, and nonbinary is all of the instruments, non excluded but some may be silent or not. The difference I guess is in the trans physical part of it, it gets into hair splitting at that point and is not that important. What is, is that nb's sometimes need to transition, and sometimes they don't. Society's enforced matrix got us into this mess, starting with the old Benjamine standards, lol I was classified Benjamine Type 4 trans, advising hormones and no operations, thats what they had back in the day. But its so much more complex than that. Heres the other thing. I don't identify as a man or a woman, I identify as trans. I do identify as NB, but NB becomes an adjective for me, nb trans, its a coloration of my being trans. Sounds complex, but I know who I am and how I live and what I need, and thats what the key to it all is. What makes me feel good, happy, truthful and real. I am VERY happy with my transition and the way it all turned out. And that took a ton of therapy and this forum to figure out.
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Jamie Quinn
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Post by Jamie Quinn on Apr 30, 2019 7:48:49 GMT 8
Quick disclaimer: if what I’m saying is getting too harmful, please let me know and I’ll respect your response and advice. This is a support forum and I don’t want to threaten this space. My intention is too learn, but not at the cost of other people’s well-being.
I understand that being NB is a reaction against rigid social structures, but for me it’s helpful to understand how I fit in. I guess my understanding of the objectives of what I’m going to call “gender-progressives” (this is to include cis allies and other non-trans folk) was to let gender be what it naturally is. However, there has been a language developing around it, which creates more boundaries. I don’t think that’s a bad thing if those boundaries accurately reflect the way gender actually functions for people. The word “trans” describes something, otherwise we could say “trans men are men, trans women are women, all nonbinaries are valid” and then ditch the word altogether. So because we can talk about trans vs cos, there is some kind of distinction to be made. In binary contexts, it’s pretty easy, but because my experience is in a grey area with regards to the word trans, splitting hairs sort of comes with the territory. Because someone being trans doesn’t come down to surgery, hrt, or even presentation, it’s difficult to know what does and doesn’t qualify, or even what the term really means in practice. The fact that I’m not even really sure what gender is right now makes the definition of “a different gender than what you were assigned at birth” not the clearest for me. There’s no argument that could hold up in court. I do believe that all genders are valid, but my logical side wants something airtight.
I think the best way to make sense of what you’ve all said with regards to my question is to say that whether a nb person is trans comes down to some particular factors that can only be judged on a case by case basis. Many of these factors can only be known by the person themselves, and therefore must come down to their discretion. That’s probably the most mutually satisfactory answer at the moment. Thoughts?
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Post by Trinity on Apr 30, 2019 9:43:59 GMT 8
Quick disclaimer: if what I’m saying is getting too harmful, please let me know and I’ll respect your response and advice. This is a support forum and I don’t want to threaten this space. My intention is too learn, but not at the cost of other people’s well-being. I understand that being NB is a reaction against rigid social structures, but for me it’s helpful to understand how I fit in. I guess my understanding of the objectives of what I’m going to call “gender-progressives” (this is to include cis allies and other non-trans folk) was to let gender be what it naturally is. However, there has been a language developing around it, which creates more boundaries. I don’t think that’s a bad thing if those boundaries accurately reflect the way gender actually functions for people. The word “trans” describes something, otherwise we could say “trans men are men, trans women are women, all nonbinaries are valid” and then ditch the word altogether. So because we can talk about trans vs cos, there is some kind of distinction to be made. In binary contexts, it’s pretty easy, but because my experience is in a grey area with regards to the word trans, splitting hairs sort of comes with the territory. Because someone being trans doesn’t come down to surgery, hrt, or even presentation, it’s difficult to know what does and doesn’t qualify, or even what the term really means in practice. The fact that I’m not even really sure what gender is right now makes the definition of “a different gender than what you were assigned at birth” not the clearest for me. There’s no argument that could hold up in court. I do believe that all genders are valid, but my logical side wants something airtight. I think the best way to make sense of what you’ve all said with regards to my question is to say that whether a nb person is trans comes down to some particular factors that can only be judged on a case by case basis. Many of these factors can only be known by the person themselves, and therefore must come down to their discretion. That’s probably the most mutually satisfactory answer at the moment. Thoughts? "Nb as a reaction to social structure." There I differ. Its not a reaction. Its a knowing that what they are, is not me. So its not reactive, but more creative. Its not being part of, yet being part of all. It a unique path in the forest. I was born NB. Born trans too. Androgyne....but more. So its not a reaction against the matrix its bending the spoon...
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 30, 2019 9:45:07 GMT 8
Quicker disclaimer: You can post what you want, if nobody likes it or it is meaningless or disrespectful, you might not get a response. But on the other hand, it is also the launching place of another discussion and in that discussion is the place to find the things that matter to you and your truths. Rebuttals are always going on, if you look at a lot of the posts in a thread, it is more than just discussion, it is this or that and it takes the discussion for the information to come out. While there is a ton of information in the threads, there is that and more in the members here, the only way to get that information is to ask or to start a discussion. If you get way out there and start to sound like a troll, you'll be told that, otherwise, if you notice, nobody calls anyone a derogatory name or word (maybe sometimes in fun, but that's usually an inside thing between people, a smart ass response). Just can't stress it enough, there are no moderators here and never have been an probably never will, the members moderate the threads themselves. If you want to post something and want to attach a disclaimer to it for whatever reason to make yourself feel better, go right ahead, but even without one, just an off post here or there isn't going to cause anyone any harm. It's true that some who come here are very fragile, but that goes away pretty fast, they ask questions expecting to have someone be pissed, but what happens is that it becomes another discussion about it. There is no rule on what you can post, it's up to you to decide if the wording or subject is questionable, and if it is, someone might say something, but probably no one will respond to it. Lotsa different and sometimes weird personalities here, so take things with a grain, just people trying to find the way to themselves.
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Jamie Quinn
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Orientation: Queer
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Post by Jamie Quinn on Apr 30, 2019 10:27:08 GMT 8
Quicker disclaimer: You can post what you want, if nobody likes it or it is meaningless or disrespectful, you might not get a response. But on the other hand, it is also the launching place of another discussion and in that discussion is the place to find the things that matter to you and your truths. Rebuttals are always going on, if you look at a lot of the posts in a thread, it is more than just discussion, it is this or that and it takes the discussion for the information to come out. While there is a ton of information in the threads, there is that and more in the members here, the only way to get that information is to ask or to start a discussion. If you get way out there and start to sound like a troll, you'll be told that, otherwise, if you notice, nobody calls anyone a derogatory name or word (maybe sometimes in fun, but that's usually an inside thing between people, a smart ass response). Just can't stress it enough, there are no moderators here and never have been an probably never will, the members moderate the threads themselves. If you want to post something and want to attach a disclaimer to it for whatever reason to make yourself feel better, go right ahead, but even without one, just an off post here or there isn't going to cause anyone any harm. It's true that some who come here are very fragile, but that goes away pretty fast, they ask questions expecting to have someone be pissed, but what happens is that it becomes another discussion about it. There is no rule on what you can post, it's up to you to decide if the wording or subject is questionable, and if it is, someone might say something, but probably no one will respond to it. Lotsa different and sometimes weird personalities here, so take things with a grain, just people trying to find the way to themselves. Good to know. I wanted to play it extra safe while I’m still getting a feel for the community here. I thought it would be better to be too cautious than not enough. "Nb as a reaction to social structure." There I differ. Its not a reaction. Its a knowing that what they are, is not me. So its not reactive, but more creative. Its not being part of, yet being part of all. It a unique path in the forest. I was born NB. Born trans too. Androgyne....but more. So its not a reaction against the matrix its bending the spoon... That’s a great point and I agree completely. I didn’t think much at all about that phrasing, which sheds a bit of light on some pretty deeply ingrained ideas...
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Post by Jamie Quinn on Apr 30, 2019 10:48:16 GMT 8
To me, it is really important to remember that the "labels" are for you, not for others. They help you identify how you feel and how you want to express yourself, and also help you to connect to others who may be the same way. Cis folks often don't understand why we have so many labels, because they think the labels are there to help them understand our whole group. It just doesn't work that way. I only partly agree with this. I think the labels and their surrounding language aren’t “for cis people”; we should be the ones to set the language – however, I think it’s important to have a framework that is consistent enough that a non binary person can explain in general terms how they experience gender to a cis person in a way that makes sense within that framework. It makes more public discussion, awareness, and any push for rights and recognition much more possible. That framework isn’t settled yet, but I think it’s important to have when breaking the binary becomes a mainstream political topic (which I think is inevitable). I worry that if we, the non binary community, haven’t developed that framework when that happens, cis people will do it for us, and it won’t work.
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