Non-trans Non-binary

[Ativan Prescribed]

They don't ask the right questions, in other words, they don't have any idea of what you are talking about most of all.
The concept goes right up against their reality and that is something that causes them fear, and it is that fear that keeps them from understanding.
But a lot of them do understand, but to know the language and explanations is going to just out them, even to themselves.
They don't want to even have the hint that they are not who they say they are and that they have always had these odd thoughts of the other gender but that it isn't right either.
The entire idea of gender just escapes too many people and a lot of the problem is there, they are hard core into the equation of sex equals gender, that they are interchangeable and that it just can't be true because the TV preacher says it can't be.
At every twist and turn, unless they actually want to know more than the easy answer, which they refuse to believe, they have brain freeze and all they hear is blah blah blah, and they might have their fingers in their ears and are saying nanananananan...
The language is there and the explanations are easy, but if they are going to be afraid, then they won't get near the truth.
We can explain it in several different ways that, guess what, grade school kids understand, but then their brains aren't filled with the lies about gender being not the same thing as sex.
The average person can't tell the difference between them because that is how society has made it, when if they just thought about it and wondered why there would be two words for the same simple ass thing, then they would question it and begin to listen.
But the real thing is that they have a built in fear of anything that isn't just like them, because they know they are not just like everyone else, and if you open that can or worms, they might be struck down by lightning.
The levels of just shear ignorance about too many things that are a part of life, they fail to make the connections in a good explanation, and yet it is so easy to understand, they just don't want to have to think about it any longer than they have to, they might out themselves.
Two parts there, so many people doubt their own gender, even though they don't have to, they just get a nagging feeling, and the fear of some god who only exists in Pences mind, or the likes of him.
That people do get that inner feeling that they might want to say try on a dress just scares them, what if, I mean...WHAT IF?, and it is only the people who have always pretty much known that their gender isn't all that right for them, that they need to redefine what their gender really is, and the guys who sneak a dress now and then have nothing to worry about, they all do it given the chance, it's in wearing it that the light goes off and they suddenly see it a lot more clear than a minute ago.
So the language isn't really a problem, I mean just how many more ways and words do they need to hear before they can say that gender is what it is for each person and it isn't binary, it is what it is.
But they want the simple answer that they don't have to think about and can tell their friends to show off how they know know even though they can't explain it any better than they could before, they want it to be a non thinking thing, no critical neurons killed in the making of this explanation, if it isn't apparent in the first five seconds, their attention span has wandered of on whats for dinner tonight.

[Jamie Quinn]

I hear what you're saying, and there is certainly a lot of the kind of fear you're talking about (that's why it's taken me so many years to get to even where I am now), but I don't think it's going to stay that way forever. The trans community is steadily gaining more recognition as time goes on, and binary-trans people are becoming a more palatable idea to the broader public. We've had same-sex marriage gain massive public support, binary-trans recognition is making headway, and once that gets mainstreamed, it's only a matter of time before the general public are ready to start thinking about nonbinary identities seriously. It'll be a while, but when it happens, we need to be ready to talk. Otherwise the reactionaries will get to set the language and the tone.

Aside from even that, like Becky was saying, the language isn't for the people who don't want to know. It's for us, and people like us, and for potential allies. The simpler the language is to understand, the easier it will be for the people who might be able to get past that fear to do so. Maybe then a few more people can bend some spoons and learn to be comfortable being exactly who they are. If we can make it easier for people to understand, we can break more people out of gender prison (can we start calling being stuck in binary thinking as "gender prison"?). It certainly would have helped me.

[Becky]

Apr 30, 2019 10:48:16 GMT 8 Jamie Quinn said:

Apr 30, 2019 2:22:08 GMT 8 Becky said:

To me, it is really important to remember that the "labels" are for you, not for others. They help you identify how you feel and how you want to express yourself, and also help you to connect to others who may be the same way. Cis folks often don't understand why we have so many labels, because they think the labels are there to help them understand our whole group. It just doesn't work that way.

I only partly agree with this. I think the labels and their surrounding language aren’t “for cis people”; we should be the ones to set the language – however, I think it’s important to have a framework that is consistent enough that a non binary person can explain in general terms how they experience gender to a cis person in a way that makes sense within that framework. It makes more public discussion, awareness, and any push for rights and recognition much more possible. That framework isn’t settled yet, but I think it’s important to have when breaking the binary becomes a mainstream political topic (which I think is inevitable). I worry that if we, the non binary community, haven’t developed that framework when that happens, cis people will do it for us, and it won’t work.

I think your viewpoint is totally valid.  Thanks for putting it in such clear terms.  We have our work cut out for us!  If I have trouble getting my own wife to understand my gender identity and desire for gender expression, trying to come up with a consistent set of labels that will work for average cisgender folks will be a true challenge.

[Leena]

Apr 30, 2019 12:13:25 GMT 8 Jamie Quinn said:

I hear what you're saying, and there is certainly a lot of the kind of fear you're talking about (that's why it's taken me so many years to get to even where I am now), but I don't think it's going to stay that way forever. The trans community is steadily gaining more recognition as time goes on, and binary-trans people are becoming a more palatable idea to the broader public. We've had same-sex marriage gain massive public support, binary-trans recognition is making headway, and once that gets mainstreamed, it's only a matter of time before the general public are ready to start thinking about nonbinary identities seriously. It'll be a while, but when it happens, we need to be ready to talk. Otherwise the reactionaries will get to set the language and the tone.

Aside from even that, like Becky was saying, the language isn't for the people who don't want to know. It's for us, and people like us, and for potential allies. The simpler the language is to understand, the easier it will be for the people who might be able to get past that fear to do so. Maybe then a few more people can bend some spoons and learn to be comfortable being exactly who they are. If we can make it easier for people to understand, we can break more people out of gender prison (can we start calling being stuck in binary thinking as "gender prison"?). It certainly would have helped me.

We already do have to be ready to talk if we talk about it outside of non-binary friendly spaces, and honestly I'm not very good at it and do worry I might make things worse.

I'm older though and when I was a kid I didn't have non-binary as a concept, but did have trans and it was clear to me that I was trans. Even though I had met a few people that identified as non-binary along the way, I didn't see that in myself until after I came out as trans on another forum. I didn't seem to be quite the same as the other trans women there, part of that might be in my acceptance of non-binary people, and also my not liking passing culture.

It's entirely possible to be accepting of non-binary people and not like passing culture and be binary trans though. It just may not have been possible on that forum 5 years ago.

[Jamie Quinn]

I wasn’t going to mention this necessarily, but I’ve actually got a framework that I’ve been developing in an attempt to figure myself out. It’s designed to make sense to people stuck in the binary, but also be able to convey as many gender experiences as possible (think the political compass with a heat map in stead of a single point). My plan has been to go public with it at some point, but I wanted to run it past the folks here to make sure it represents more nonbinary-folk than just me. It’ll be a bit of work to get it all down, so it’ll come a bit later. Stay tuned.

[Ativan Prescribed]

Apr 30, 2019 12:13:25 GMT 8 Jamie Quinn said:

I hear what you're saying, and there is certainly a lot of the kind of fear you're talking about (that's why it's taken me so many years to get to even where I am now), but I don't think it's going to stay that way forever. The trans community is steadily gaining more recognition as time goes on, and binary-trans people are becoming a more palatable idea to the broader public. We've had same-sex marriage gain massive public support, binary-trans recognition is making headway, and once that gets mainstreamed, it's only a matter of time before the general public are ready to start thinking about nonbinary identities seriously. It'll be a while, but when it happens, we need to be ready to talk. Otherwise the reactionaries will get to set the language and the tone.

Aside from even that, like Becky was saying, the language isn't for the people who don't want to know. It's for us, and people like us, and for potential allies. The simpler the language is to understand, the easier it will be for the people who might be able to get past that fear to do so. Maybe then a few more people can bend some spoons and learn to be comfortable being exactly who they are. If we can make it easier for people to understand, we can break more people out of gender prison (can we start calling being stuck in binary thinking as "gender prison"?). It certainly would have helped me.

There are those who have been at this for years now and have made some headway into just how do we even explain this to ourselves and people who come here.
Some of us have been together here since the beginning of this forum and we met on another one and were there for a few years.
The language that we use is the simplified one that we developed as a way to explain and to allow the others at the other forum a chance to understand NB, it was a transsexual forum and they are kinda militant there.
But they are binary and the difficulties from them simply not wanting to acknowledge us just made it a mess, so we made up this forest.
You might read stuff about it here and there, and the opposition became the matrix and the illusion of binary is the core of that, Trinity likes to see us as like Trinity and Neo from the movie.
"Time to wake up Neo" is a phrase used a while back and I think of as still valid and in light of our matrix we have to negotiate our way through, a lot of the things in the movies is valid for us.
I know the stage would have to be set first in order to explain things in ways that are similar to the movies, but the stuff from there has changed to a more open kind of talk.
So that is where the old timers from here have been coming from and we understand it when we say things that might otherwise seem strange.
I stress for people to go through the old posts to find the things that interest them, but once done, go back and read the things about the matrix and how we refer to it.
It isn't the thing you are looking for exactly, but as an established way that we have frame it as, it's a good place to maybe set up your own experience and that of others to explain NB.
The trouble with NB is that there aren't any really good reps for us, the ones that gain some fame are because they set themselves farther apart from the rest of their crowd.
One thing that is never going to generate any kind of support is the being outlandish just to get the attention, NB is far away from that shit.
Just like the fashion industry always fails at trying to be NB or in the past they promoted unisex fashion, NB isn't about a look at all, it isn't about getting even a little recognition.
Sticking out is far away from where NB comes from, the fears NB have is sticking out and then having to deal with that along with the journey they are on to discover more about themselves.
If there is any celebrating at all here for something like that, it is personal goals that have been met, but those goals aren't for gaining outside admiration for each step they take.
here is the journey we each take and the forum is a place for that, talk about it here if you want some ideas and ways others have done things.
It isn't about acceptance so much as it is about not making it something that requires attention from the rest of the world, there is no superhero NB, NB defies that.
And the concept of a language has been around before I ever became involved years ago, over a decade of being a part of the online anyways.
There is one we use and it serves us here, if it does elsewhere, then fine, but if it is in contrast to other NBs doing the same thing, then the clash isn't worth it, infighting gets anyone nowhere, it's a step back.
I can't tell you how many people I've read their stuff about getting the message to cis and make it so that we can become acceptable, they either do accept or not, the nots are not going to accept anything you say.
At the best, the very best, we give the ones who do accept a better way to talk about us as like ambassadors of a sort, outing yourself as NB has the backlash that others have stepped past, but we aren't there yet.
There is that idea that there are huge numbers of people who, if they had the way of seeing themselves and not binary, that if they wanted could say they are NB and that makes them NB then.
That rolls back to your idea if cis NB vs trans NB, when in reality there is no us vs them, there is no us vs anyone, we are the ignored and the ones shoved to the back of the closet and the door slammed shut.
The only way to talk to those who don't get it is to just say tell them they don't get it because they can't, they don't have the capacity to understand others not in their flat earth word of make believe that there is only binary because Pence and the other TV evangelists say it is so, so long as they believe the worst of the bullshit that is tossed around out there that they can repeat like it makes them someone, they won't do more than say you are possessed and then make a cross sign at you as if you are a vampire (when we all know that the people like the pence crowd are the real bloodsuckers).
It isn't about having a way to say the things that will make others understand, it is so fricken simple to begin with that if they don't get that simplicity, how are you going to make it simpler?
You don't, you use the fair game rules that say if they are going to make derogatory names and say the same, then they get what they sow, just tell them they don't have the innate capacity to understand other humans, and leave it at that, walk away and let that roll around in their empty heads so that they can tell their empty headed buddies, who will laugh at them until they finally just sit down and make the effort.
You can't do that for them, it doesn't work like that, not to even family, if they want to stick their fingers in their ears and say anana everytime you try to explain it to them, they aren't going to listen, they are going to wonder what's for dinner.
NB is just that simple, it is non-binary, not binary, it is not just a guy or gal, it is what we want it to be.
And there is the big problem with anyone even and maybe especially Dr Phil explaining to anyone who will listen, every one of us has a different idea of ourselves because it is an integral part of ourselves and that to explain is to talk about ourselves as individuals as the individuals we are, the explanations that go along with the language is not the words used or the language itself, it is in addressing each and every person and everyone is different.
There isn't any consensus about what NB even is, other than it is not binary, what that means for each person is their own ideas, and everyone is different, it's something I have known for a lot of years and is the best thing about NB.
There isn't a path we take, we take the same path as any individual takes, there isn't a way that we do anything that isn't just the same as everyone else, there is no look no matter how hard you try, and the harder you try the harder you'll fail.
So a language for us is pretty much here for us and that's what matters here, how it is outside of the sandbox doesn't matter very much.
How we explain it to people who come here is in different ways as they get to that point where the question is a legit one in that they want that specific answer, and to be honest, there is no simple answer to any of the questions.
I totally agree and understand what you are saying, but it's an exercise in futility until they actually ask the right question, the one that they can accept the answer to and let that roll around until the next question comes up.
You can't write an essay or a book or anything like that as a way to explain, how do you explain the differences between all the people in the world?
And that is the other thing, we are all more alike than we are different, every single person on this planet, being the outlaw is just a step away from everyone, it isn't like you can step much further without being seen as like an alien being.
As far as NB goes, we are really more alike to everyone not trans than we are to trans, we are just everyday people who don't accept that binary gender matrix crap, we know we are NB and there is no argument, there are the ones who understand and then there are the idiots who think they do but really, there is very little they understand other than the bullshit they see as the truth they live, they live in their own shit and expect everyone else to do the same.
I take everyone at face value here, I take each person as the NB they are, I have no proof they are, but more important, I don't have any proof they aren't.
There isn't a test to take, there isn't an award for being the best NB, it is what it is and that is what each person says it is to them, and that is again, the best thing about NB, not outlaws, but individuals.

[Becky]

May 1, 2019 7:23:51 GMT 8 Jamie Quinn said:

I wasn’t going to mention this necessarily, but I’ve actually got a framework that I’ve been developing in an attempt to figure myself out. It’s designed to make sense to people stuck in the binary, but also be able to convey as many gender experiences as possible (think the political compass with a heat map in stead of a single point). My plan has been to go public with it at some point, but I wanted to run it past the folks here to make sure it represents more nonbinary-folk than just me. It’ll be a bit of work to get it all down, so it’ll come a bit later. Stay tuned.

That sounds cool!  I actually have given thought to presenting this information similarly to the way they do alignments in Dungeons and Dragons (yes, I'm that nerdy).

You would start with gender expression, either masculine, neutral, or feminine, then follow with physical gender, either Male, Intersex, or Female.

Thus, I would call myself a Feminine Male.  It simplifies things, but perhaps too much.  I still hate hearing the word "male" applied to myself, but it's accurate.

I look forward to what you come up with!
<3

[Ativan Prescribed]

Just saying the words that mean gender and sex together can make a point useless to even try to make.
It reinforces the general idea that gender and sex are the same thing, and that is a huge share of the misunderstandings.
If it were me, I'd leave the sex part out of it and go with the gender expressions, people relate to those as being able to crossover, they see and hear it all the time.
But the sex part, it is the truth that gender is based on to them, and put them together and you have the same old argument and that.
People pull back from it, once sex is brought into it, they revert to the same old can't be changed and have to be the one born with, as in sex.
Once things are better established, then sex can be brought up and you can talk about chromosomes and you can say that you got those from being born, but you weren't born masculine, and the distinction by then should be easier to deal with.

[Jamie Quinn]

May 2, 2019 9:55:33 GMT 8 Ativan Prescribed said:

Just saying the words that mean gender and sex together can make a point useless to even try to make.
It reinforces the general idea that gender and sex are the same thing, and that is a huge share of the misunderstandings.
If it were me, I'd leave the sex part out of it and go with the gender expressions, people relate to those as being able to crossover, they see and hear it all the time.
But the sex part, it is the truth that gender is based on to them, and put them together and you have the same old argument and that.
People pull back from it, once sex is brought into it, they revert to the same old can't be changed and have to be the one born with, as in sex.
Once things are better established, then sex can be brought up and you can talk about chromosomes and you can say that you got those from being born, but you weren't born masculine, and the distinction by then should be easier to deal with.

My theory is that gender norms correlated much more easily to sex before contraception. If a sexually active (“married” in the old language) female could fall pregnant at any time, that influences a lot of social culture. That’s become less relevant since the invention of contraception, which is where things become confusing. The main thing that tied sex to gender has become much less relevant, but we’re still feeling the echoes of that link, hence the continuing conflation of sex and gender.

[Ativan Prescribed]

I grew up in those days before the pill, and it was a huge thing at the time and society was sure to go into apocalypse mode for sure, if Vietnam wasn't going to first.
The sexual revolution had already started and that was how the pill was invented, which it wasn't because they already knew that extra E would do the job so they marketed it a s the new so they could charge more for it.
It's a male thing to do, they wanted to be the rulers of all this easy sex going on, if they could make a buck on it they would and they did with the pill.
But the seual revolution also brought the holy roller not christian tent evangelists to town and they sprung up everywhere and we were all going to die because guys wanted to get free sex instead of paying for it wich was ok then and the world was good.
But it brought all kinds of equality to the surface at the same time and the feminist movement grabbed ahold and never let go, and it wasn't exactly news that there were transsexuals, but more importantly, the guys discovered that those blowjobs were from transvestites.
So they got all indignant and jumped that bandwagon the tent evangelists used to get from town to town and they used the righteousness of the not christians to declare a war ofm that kind of shit, and they used everything they had, men everywhere jumped on it.
Just the thought that they had their dicks in another guys mouth just creeped them out, but instead on not going to that hooker anymore, they demanded that they all be arrested and that happened, but then the guys who knew, realized they got a better blowjob from the trans hookers and it became sex workers at the same time.
But the high and mighty who aren't all that high and certainly not mighty just got more and more vocal and back then, if you denounced christians at all, you were doomed to a lifetime of being kicked from town to town.
So these not christians give me your money and send your prayers to god people just made more money and they got to be more and could even afford a damn car to get around.
It was the birth of the TV evangelist, and Billy Graham was the first to make it happen and of course a bunch of others jumped on that, and guess what they could make the most money on?
Preaching about the sins of the trans and how they were bringin on a plague or something, anything that would get them more money, and because you couldn't call them out for the phonies they are, all kinds of people believe them.
They used gender and sex as the same thing and they still do today, even though old Billy is in hell and deserves it for being the asshole who started it all.
Don't think it is true?go listen to Billy's kid, who is ten times worse than his father ever was, he is preaching and being an outright asshole to everyone because he is rich enough to do it.
And you just gotta realize that he is the phony he is, because he is the trump preacher, and they like how each other can get rich by lying and cheating people out of their money, and country if you think about it.