inherit
32
0
Jun 24, 2015 3:12:57 GMT 8
419
Edge
517
Nov 26, 2014 22:03:42 GMT 8
November 2014
edge
FTM Non-Binary
Genderfluid
He/His/Him
|
Post by Edge on Apr 6, 2015 7:10:43 GMT 8
I apologize in advance for repeating things I’ve said before.
As people know, I am very much against gender roles. However, to my embarrassment, I realized that gender roles have had an effect on how I see my gender after all. It’s just that the gender roles that affect me are the ones I grew up with which are different than the ones other people grew up with. See, my parents tried to raise me as gender neutral as possible, but I was (and am) really into mythology and mythology has it’s own archetypes. Probably because of this, I see female me as more like the war goddesses like Anat and Sekmet and both of me together as more of a trickster. It’s not a very big difference. Just enough for me to be able tell. But I’m pretty sure it’s still there. Not that long ago, this would have caused me some distress. Does that mean these parts me aren’t real since I don’t believe in gender roles? But now I wonder if it matters. I wonder how gender roles do affect people. How much of an effect have they had on me? And since when? I’ve imagined myself as twins since I was little. I wonder why.
I was talking last night with another friend who is both. We speculated whether our other genders were brought about by loneliness. In my case at least, he may have a point. After all, imagining myself as twins has helped with feelings of loneliness to an extent. Is that necessarily a bad thing though? Besides, I’ve usually imagined male me being the one to protect and comfort female me and my male self is, without a doubt, real.
I’ve considered that maybe she exists because I used to live as her. Would that make her not real or is she real because I made her real?
If I live mostly as male, transition to male, have a male brain, etc, does that mean I have to give her up? Does that mean she isn’t really real?
How exactly do we define real when it comes to gender? And does it matter? Either way, I don’t want to give her up. Before I accepted myself as a man, I had this big, painful hole (metaphorically). I accepted that I am a man and that hole was filled. Not necessarily healed, but I felt whole. I’ve tried denying her existence for awhile and that hole opened up again. I feel whole when I accept that I’m both. To me, that makes her real enough. No one has to believe me. People can think what they like. She is a part of me regardless.
So. Sorry for talking about myself. I just wanted to share these things. What things do you think contributed to how you see your gender? Where do you think it comes from? Is it just from brain structure or do you think there is more to it? Why? What does it mean to be real? Do you think it matters?
|
|
inherit
60
0
1
May 19, 2024 8:42:04 GMT 8
4,666
Ativan Prescribed
8,479
Jan 9, 2015 10:22:46 GMT 8
January 2015
ativanprescribed
|
Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 6, 2015 9:17:52 GMT 8
It's a very valid point, using yourself as an example and also asking, in turn, valid questions about yourself. It plays into the discussions that go around about whether gender is a social construct. I think you've given two valid points of consideration. The question of realness is difficult to explain to anyone else. If it is real to you, then it is real, very much so, to you. That counts for a lot more than whether it is to anyone else. If gender is nothing more than social construct, then it is only real to each person as they see that construct for themselves. Being NB has a lot of that built into it, from that same vantage of whether it is a construct or not. If I view my gender as having two sides, it's real to me. But if I think that gender is a social construct, that conflicts with my reality as I feel it. I think it is to a large extent a social construct in the way it is constructed. But that doesn't make it any less real to me and with that idea of it's how it is constructed, only plays into that reality by definition. If it feels real to me, it is real. Doesn't matter what anyone else says, they don't experience my reality. In the bigger question is it as real to others as it is to me? Depends on the construct itself. To dismiss gender completely because it is a social construct doesn't work then. The social construct of it might not be real, but the construct that it has in my reality makes it real and can't be contested as merely social. There are ways that gender can be described medically that has nothing to do with social construct, brain mapping is one way that looks promising. Is it real? It depends on the context of your reality for you. Mine is for me, I would expect yours is just as valid for you. Gender as a construct of your reality is real if it feels real to you. The social aspect of it has nothing to do with your reality, if it did, then it would stand to reason that your reality is nothing more than a social construct as well. if that was true, you wouldn't experience reality as it is to you. Reality wouldn't exist and then neither would this conversation or anything else. Then I wouldn't be able to say that line of, I reject your reality and substitute my own. If reality is a social construct, I wouldn't be able to say that and you wouldn't be able to read it. Never mind who's reality it is, yours is always real for you and I can't substitute yours with mine. I can only not use yours and use mine in its place, and that would only be in my reality. Which is real to me, I know it is, I just explained that it it is. If you flip you and me around in what I just said, the validity is the same. Reality is more than just a social construct, so your gender is just as real as your reality is and that is real as well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3
0
May 19, 2024 13:55:29 GMT 8
Deleted
0
May 19, 2024 13:55:29 GMT 8
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 0:32:48 GMT 8
Good conversation and it does feed into the Non-Binary concept of being both but not completely or totally either binary, does it not?
|
|
inherit
17
0
Feb 26, 2021 11:29:15 GMT 8
1,139
Ayla
m2me
5,298
Nov 19, 2014 19:54:37 GMT 8
November 2014
aisla
Female
Female
She/Her
Pansexual
|
Post by Ayla on Apr 7, 2015 5:48:42 GMT 8
Gender does appear to be a lot more than a pure social construct. Certainly Affect theorists argue strongly, and I think persuasively, that gender is bio/psycho/social in nature. Each factor is important and each factor is interdependent with the others. Now whether or not this is the final word or 'truth' remains to be seen.
The thing is that any explanation, any theory or any 'truth' has currency only in so far as it resonates with you. When faced with a variety of possible explanations I find it best to take the explanation that best fits me, is kindest and most respectful of me. I find this validating and empowering. Belief makes it real.
In many ways this is like mythology. Believers make it real. Accept that you are real. That your perceptions, feelings and understandings are valid and real. When you do this, life becomes a whole lot more simple as you are well on your way to accepting and celebrating yourself. If you feel whole or better when you do this, then do it.
I have spent far too much band width on trying to understand the boxes where I might just fit, or better still, belong. I couldn't find one. Thank god for an enlightened therapist who understood non binary identity. Once I understood that I could just be myself, me, then the journey became my journey and I could view it as an heroic quest. Perhaps not Homeric, but certainly important and meaningful to me.
Safe travels
Aisla
|
|
inherit
32
0
Jun 24, 2015 3:12:57 GMT 8
419
Edge
517
Nov 26, 2014 22:03:42 GMT 8
November 2014
edge
FTM Non-Binary
Genderfluid
He/His/Him
|
Post by Edge on Apr 8, 2015 4:47:20 GMT 8
Certainly Affect theorists argue strongly, and I think persuasively, that gender is bio/psycho/social in nature. I agree. There's certainly a lot of reason to believe that most things to do with the brain and psychology are a combination of these things. It's very fascinating to look at how they all interact. I think, when it comes to boxes, it's important to think of it more like... paint works as a metaphor I think. You don't have to be only one colour of paint and there's no one way to paint with that colour. You can take several colours and use them to paint your way of being whatever colour it is. You can mix colours and get a new one or have them interact in ways that are unique to you. Sorry. I drive my friends in our Theories of Personality class nuts because I get all passionate about this subject.
|
|
inherit
17
0
Feb 26, 2021 11:29:15 GMT 8
1,139
Ayla
m2me
5,298
Nov 19, 2014 19:54:37 GMT 8
November 2014
aisla
Female
Female
She/Her
Pansexual
|
Post by Ayla on Apr 8, 2015 4:53:58 GMT 8
No need to apologise. It's fascinating how physical interaction between folk like mother and child, stimulate chemicals/hormones which in turn activate neural pathways and therefore personality and identity. It makes a lot of sense and explained a lot to me. I also like the paint analogy.
Safe travels
Aisla
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
22
0
May 19, 2024 13:55:29 GMT 8
Deleted
0
May 19, 2024 13:55:29 GMT 8
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 5:29:36 GMT 8
Good conversation and it does feed into the Non-Binary concept of being both but not completely or totally either binary, does it not? I agree with Shan on this. This is something that is extremely interesting. Do I think you have to give "her" up if you transition fully to male? No. I don't. The reason being is that we all have aspects of both. I will use the male gender because this term is so prevalent in male gender roles. "Feminine side". Things like, "Embrace your feminine side.", "Don't be afraid to show your feminine side." and so on. Even though it is a little more taboo for a man to be feminine than a woman to be masculine, you don't have to give any part of yourself up. Hell I have seen a lot of men display some feminine aspects without being feminine and have seen women display some masculine aspect without being masculine.
|
|
inherit
32
0
Jun 24, 2015 3:12:57 GMT 8
419
Edge
517
Nov 26, 2014 22:03:42 GMT 8
November 2014
edge
FTM Non-Binary
Genderfluid
He/His/Him
|
Post by Edge on Apr 10, 2015 7:06:11 GMT 8
To clarify, I added the question about having to give her up because of the narrative that people "aren't really" non-binary if they transition and that they can only be the gender they transition to. It was brought up on a recent thread. I don't actually need an answer to that. There's no way I'm giving her up just because someone tells me I have to to fit their idea of who I should be. I also want to point out that men who have feminine aspects are men and women who display masculine aspects are women. Feminine and masculine refer to gender roles, not gender identity. Although I did bring up the possibility of my version of gender roles (key word there is "my") having an affect on how I see my gender identity, I was still referring to gender identity.
|
|
inherit
17
0
Feb 26, 2021 11:29:15 GMT 8
1,139
Ayla
m2me
5,298
Nov 19, 2014 19:54:37 GMT 8
November 2014
aisla
Female
Female
She/Her
Pansexual
|
Post by Ayla on Apr 10, 2015 7:35:21 GMT 8
No need to apologise. It's fascinating how physical interaction between folk like mother and child, stimulate chemicals/hormones which in turn activate neural pathways and therefore personality and identity. It makes a lot of sense and explained a lot to me. I also like the paint analogy. Safe travels Aisla It's why we love babies so much Julie This isn't really the issue here - affect theory reveals the impact of effective parenting, damaged parenting and no parenting on the development of the baby, child and adult. While each may indeed love or feel love for their baby, the impact on the baby can be quite different. Safe travels Aisla
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11
0
May 19, 2024 13:55:29 GMT 8
Deleted
0
May 19, 2024 13:55:29 GMT 8
January 1970
Deleted
|
Realness
Apr 11, 2015 1:00:02 GMT 8
via mobile
Ayla likes this
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2015 1:00:02 GMT 8
This is the good stuff of this forum.
things are said here you don't hear other places.
I only know what I experience. if someone told me that because I was transitioning I had to reject my male side or pretend I was a female trapped in a male body I told him to screw themselves.
everytime I take a dump on any of my gender perceptions and stuff them all hell breaks loose.mostly in between my ears.
there are a bunch of us on forums that are transitioning in a big way yet reject binary social programming as we search for the truth of who we are and how we feel.
not feeling our feelings I believe is real trouble.
there may be instinctive reaction to social pressure that can trigger a gender fluid response.that is usually the case with me.
My core rejects traditional gender roles. I am neither gender. my emotional centers seem to be of different gender perception and different emotional feelings.
I think that is non binary.
my body is simply a no op MTF androgyne body. and that is how it is wired sexually and visually.
how much is wiring? I would say a lot. DES body construction. splitting gender in the womb.
being socially andro genderqueer is enormously freeing. Yet I could very easily cross into female presenting or male presenting and both would be just as valid. just as real. because it feels real.
I agree.real is for us how we feel.ignoring a part of us is bull.
interesting thread.
and hormone levels seem to influence some of that self perception and also sexual desire.
so social physical wiring and self perception all seem to play a part.
does any of this make sense?
|
|
inherit
32
0
Jun 24, 2015 3:12:57 GMT 8
419
Edge
517
Nov 26, 2014 22:03:42 GMT 8
November 2014
edge
FTM Non-Binary
Genderfluid
He/His/Him
|
Post by Edge on Apr 11, 2015 1:42:13 GMT 8
It makes sense. For me, my core doesn't reject the gender roles that I grew up with, I want all of them. All the ones that fit me anyway. I'm not sure to what extent that affects my gender identity since I am well aware that these traits don't determine gender (and some of my gender roles are backwards to everyone else's since most of the girls and women I grew up with were aggressive and vicious whereas most of the boys and men were laid back and passive), but I am pretty sure that's not all there is to it. The longer I've been on T, the more comfortable I have gotten with being the male I am. Interestingly, that also coincides with becoming more comfortable with being the female I am.
Funny thing. I've been watching videos of a dancer lately who has the same body type and way of dancing I used to when I was living as female me and it's both confirmed that I am still her as well as him and making me want to live out as both even more. It's also confirmed for me that, if I could physically shapeshift, I would. It's kind of nice to confirm this for myself now that I am comfortable with the idea. At the same time, I'm not really sure what I should do. Oh well. There's plenty of time to figure it out and I like the direction I'm going in so far. For those of you who do live out as non-binary or genderfluid, how do you find it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11
0
May 19, 2024 13:55:29 GMT 8
Deleted
0
May 19, 2024 13:55:29 GMT 8
January 1970
Deleted
|
Realness
Apr 11, 2015 11:15:36 GMT 8
via mobile
Ayla likes this
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2015 11:15:36 GMT 8
Rewarding, peaceful, and needed. Harmonious to self. Real, socially, as all genders are fully free to do what they do, feel, love, protect, fight, caress...play. total freedom to feel and be, for how can it be incongruous? The whole package is there.
Later, the hair comes down, and I give my body and eyes what they need. For the protector gets to rest, and the weld fairy gets to be Sh'e. In all h'er passion.
That's how it feels, do you feel that too, or a variant?
Curios. You have a cool gender perception.
|
|
inherit
32
0
Jun 24, 2015 3:12:57 GMT 8
419
Edge
517
Nov 26, 2014 22:03:42 GMT 8
November 2014
edge
FTM Non-Binary
Genderfluid
He/His/Him
|
Post by Edge on Apr 11, 2015 21:25:01 GMT 8
I wish it did, but at the moment, I am out and living only as a binary guy. I'm afraid of being out and living as genderfluid because I'm afraid people will see me as less of a guy because of it. I am not less of a guy.
|
|
inherit
jasonmitchellemail@gmail.com
1
0
1
Dec 31, 2023 12:41:47 GMT 8
3,521
EchelonHunt
Avatar by @hitsukuya
3,193
Nov 17, 2014 22:05:35 GMT 8
November 2014
admin
|
Post by EchelonHunt on Apr 11, 2015 21:35:36 GMT 8
I wish it did, but at the moment, I am out and living only as a binary guy. I'm afraid of being out and living as genderfluid because I'm afraid people will see me as less of a guy because of it. I am not less of a guy. You'd be surprised, Victor. Generally speaking, people do not give a shit about you, they are too busy being concerned with themselves, their lives and their own drama.
Life's too short to worry about what other people think or their perceptions of you. If you're confident in your identity as a genderfluid dude, then that's all that matters. As long as your perception of yourself is crystal clear, that's all that matters.
Be yourself and flip the middle finger to the haters.
|
|
inherit
60
0
1
May 19, 2024 8:42:04 GMT 8
4,666
Ativan Prescribed
8,479
Jan 9, 2015 10:22:46 GMT 8
January 2015
ativanprescribed
|
Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 11, 2015 23:17:47 GMT 8
Edge, you can't be less of a guy in your gender identity. This goes into the idea that gender is a social construct. That construct that binaryism sets up is the perceptions that gender and sex are the same thing.
We see it in various forms, feminists who tell gender identified women they are not women because their birth sex will never let them be. Even within the trans community, there are those who can't tell the difference between gender and sex. There are transphobic factions who insist that binary is the only possible true transgender, and they insist that you align gender and sex into the same thing.
Body dysphoria comes from this and it's very real. When the world around you insists that gender and sex are the same and insist that it is binary exclusive. NB allows you to see and to be your gender as it is real to you, it defeats that binaryism argument. Binaryism as a social construct argues that NB can't be real, because it isn't a part of their reality that gender and sex are the same thing. Gender isn't a social construct if you don't buy into that logic they insist on. You defeat body dysphoria if you align your sex with who you are as your gender.
Sex is what your body may be, but you are who your gender is to you as you define it, it is your sense of reality. It doesn't have to align to anyone else's perception of their reality, regardless of their beliefs of gender as a social construct. Nobody can touch your gender, nobody can see your gender, it is the reality of yourself that is the reality of you. Social construct can't touch that. The illusion is broken and vanishes. It can however try to define you as your sex, whether you change that or not. That's the physical part that some can't separate from your reality, your gender. To live in a society that views a person gender and sex as the same thing, it is their reality that causes body dysphoria. It can't be helped, it's all around and much of the perceptions of reality are based on it. The social construct that defines gender as your sex.
Either step past it or around it, you have that choice if you want, you can also do both. Giving it the middle finger is just that. Your reality gives you, allows you, to see past that social construct that gender is defined by your sex.
In a better world, gender and sex do align, but it does with your gender first, sex as secondary, always. Separated. You are afraid to live as you are, because you are afraid that you will be seen as less of your gender, if it is dictated that sex is primary and gender follows that. The social construct that dictates that gender and sex are the same, regardless.
It's critical to know the difference to see that construct for what it is, the illusion that gender follows what your sex is. Deconstruct that social construct and you end up seeing that gender is indeed separate and that sex is a secondary consideration, separate, always. That's the basis of the argument that gender is a social construct. Once seen for what that social construct is, the illusion vanishes. What's left is the reality you exist in and that dictates that you are your gender, regardless.
If you have the need to align your sex with your gender, fine, that takes care of a lot of how that social construct can play into your reality also being a part of that social reality that because of it's prevalence in the wrong perception that your sex determines your gender. It takes a lot of stress off of being a part of society, and that is the root of the dysphoria, the stress. To be a viable part of the social construct that dictates your reality, not your own reality of who you are.
That sense of being afraid of one because you're afraid of the other is a dysphoria that is the flip side of body dysphoria. You see your gender as it is, yet the social construct dictates that it is wrong. Mental dysphoria is the result. But once you separate and deconstruct the social construct that dictates that gender is defined by sex, the illusion vanishes.
If you do flip it off in defying it or stepping around it or by doing both, then you are authentic to yourself, your reality. Others can't substitute theirs and take yours away. Deconstruct the social construct as best you can and the more you assure yourself that it is an illusion, the less afraid of that construct you'll be. Don't let that illusion of a construct that dictates that gender follows sex and is a part of it. They can be very similar, but they can never be the same thing. That's the fallacy of the social construct of gender.
The less afraid that it is a part of your reality, the easier it is to see the illusion, The easier it is to see it as that illusion, the less afraid you are of it. The less afraid you have to be, to step around it or confront it or any combination of that. The less a person buys into the social construct of gender, the less mental dysphoria they experience, the less body dysphoria you experience. Getting rid of those dysphoria, mental and body, getting rid of the fear they are based on allows you to express yourself as you are in the reality that is yours, regardless. Your reality is less affected by the social construct, and you can flip it off in the manner that suites you. The less your reality is being taken away and substituted by the reality that the social construct dictates.
Being authentic is being your reality, that is the real authenticity that is hard to live in the face of that accepted, but wrong, social construct. The basis of arguing that gender is a social construct is valid in the face of your reality about your gender as separate from your sex, regardless.
|
|