"We Never Saw You Have Any Girl Tendencies"

[Shan]

Jan 22, 2016 18:35:56 GMT 8 Trinity said:

There are several t girls in my life that expect me to fully transition. They are binary trans without casting off yheir male pasts.  They say i will fully go full timecshe, lose all.  I dont think so.  

I still wonder at male vs female instincts. And at why i just dont feel onevwith any gender other than transpeople.

I honestly see femininity the same way as River. Masculinity i can also agree with. But those attributes are not limited or required in either the male or female sex. It seems however to be more typical imo.

Does this trigger? It assigns attributes to a sex, but is that right or wrong?

There is no limit to our attributes. I like the feminine characteristics. I have both sets.

I hope River continues to chat about it here. It is a good topic, we should be able to let go of past hurts by stereotype enforcers and findvthevtruth of it. Why letvtheir past bullying mess up our current convo? And thats part of the topic too.

Trinity

So typical of them to say that! Haven't we seen that insufferable attitude time and again? 

[Trinity]

Feb 19, 2016 8:55:43 GMT 8 Shan said:

Jan 22, 2016 18:35:56 GMT 8 Trinity said:

There are several t girls in my life that expect me to fully transition. They are binary trans without casting off yheir male pasts.  They say i will fully go full timecshe, lose all.  I dont think so.  

I still wonder at male vs female instincts. And at why i just dont feel onevwith any gender other than transpeople.

I honestly see femininity the same way as River. Masculinity i can also agree with. But those attributes are not limited or required in either the male or female sex. It seems however to be more typical imo.

Does this trigger? It assigns attributes to a sex, but is that right or wrong?

There is no limit to our attributes. I like the feminine characteristics. I have both sets.

I hope River continues to chat about it here. It is a good topic, we should be able to let go of past hurts by stereotype enforcers and findvthevtruth of it. Why letvtheir past bullying mess up our current convo? And thats part of the topic too.

Trinity

So typical of them to say that! Haven't we seen that insufferable attitude time and again? 

Nearly put me in a psyche ward.  It doesnt bother me anymore.  Even if i went full out my wife is used to me as me.  She sees me get ready for my meetings, im full out and lost nothing.

Sad, that narrative.

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2016 23:17:07 GMT 8 @illuminess said:

I've had a couple people tell me how I never came across, pre-transition, as feminine or as having any signs that I would have identified as a woman. That tells me that, despite the immense diversity of expression among women, people still default to this idea that femininity is entirely in aesthetic and body language; that we're all just supposed to be girly, wear pink, giggle and have crushes on boys. Even if this were the case, making these characteristics apparent could compromise one's safety and security.

Personally, I've never really expressed any stereotypical masculinity, either. That would equally assume that all men must act macho, have muscles, be aggressive, and dominate a room; and that's not always true. This extreme polarising of gender is not only ignorant, but silly. People of all genders express themselves in all kinds of ways.

Why do we have to fit some stereotypical set of qualities and behaviors? Why do we have to wear dresses and heels, flail our arms around, and dance around the house to Katy Perry? Not that those things are bad, but not all women are like that. It has very little to do with gender, otherwise everyone would act uniformly and that would be boring. We are just far more complex creatures to be that way innately.

I wrote this following piece a while back on how I define femininity. This is my personal philosophy, and it has very little influence on my personal style, or my body language, or my overall expressiveness:

◬ "Femininity, to me, is a force of energy that encompasses life with love, compassion,
and the inherent desire to nurture and protect what is precious, holy and beautiful.

It is the essence of all that is calm, soft, expressive, and flowing. It is being emotionally
connected rather than emotionally repressed. It’s about a kind of vulnerability that allows
you to make that connection with finesse. It is intuition rather than calculation.

Both the masculine and the feminine display strength, except masculine strength comes
from tension whereas feminine strength comes from flexibility. It is also not about being
submissive and appeasing.

It’s about being true to yourself, finding your inner strength and self respect." ◬

I know who I am. You know who you are. My gender identity is unwavering, and I will always love what I love, and express myself that comes to me naturally. So will you. If that's not "feminine" enough for someone to justify our transition, then they need to take a much closer look at the world around them.

Illuminess, this is really interesting and something I am grappling with at the moment: How do I express my gender; rather than my gender identity.  So that's really confusing.  So what I mean is what does it mean to be female, as opposed to dress female?  What will it mean for me to be feminine?  I have had one day ever in femme mode, and it was mindblowing and also really normal.  I also suspect most would never consider me a possible transitioner, despite the fact that I wear clear varnish on my fingers (and yes, obviously its obvious!). So what I am trying to understand at the deepest level is what does it mean to be female.  And I think this is why I fall into the non-binary spectrum.  There are too many traits inherent in me that are masculine, that I enjoy and that I like to have as part of my personality toolbox.  I like male to female sexual intercourse.  I like the strength of my body, and the way it responds so quickly to any form of exercise (I am lucky here in that I am tall and slender).  I like male privilege.  I find it a very useful tool to have in my box and I also really like to use my male privilege to drive gender equality.  But I don't like my balding hair, I don't like my flat, hairy chest (I dream of breasts), I don't like to wear men's clothes all the time. I would love to pierce my ears but it would so upset my wife. So I still search for the kernel of gender - what does it mean.  And why do I want to be both, and present as both, especially considering that I was no different at all the day I presented femme.  My companion on that day saw no change, into girly expressions or any such thing.  My sense is that I have integrated my personality into a genderless space - I am the mom in my research group (all my students come to me with their problems and cry on my round table), I am the dad (I protect and provide for the group).  At home I have a balanced mix of tasks and chores, neither masculine nor feminine (except for all the maintenance and fixing bits - but I am an engineer so I do those things because of my skills, not who I am).  That is why I like your post:  what is femininity to me?  And to me it is a softness and beauty.  Soft skin, soft body, soft materials to wear, soft demeanour without overt testosterone driven aggression.  But it is a whole lot more than this, and I still seek ways to express my femininity when I am in male mode, because without that I feel terribly dysphoric. And the whole lot more than this - well, I carry on searching.

[Trinity]

Long path isnt it? And all of us so unique.

For me Cherie its awareness. Im far to the femine side, but its just knowing, and that makes me smile. Seeing me.

But not shutting any of me down. Just being it all. Enjoying it all.

Boy and girl parts.  But really they are just Trinity parts.  Because I am an nb ts.  So they are qualities.  Pieces of music.  And they mean a lot to me because i love them.

That took a long time.  The love part.  It was the key.

Then i can reveal me as i wish.  Hide me if i want but know i am right here.  Take me out for a treat.  Battle, love, nurture.  Its all me.

Its all you.

Its real.

[Deleted]

Thanks trinity!

[Mingma]

Feb 26, 2016 18:24:11 GMT 8 @cherie said:

Jan 16, 2016 23:17:07 GMT 8 @illuminess said:

I've had a couple people tell me how I never came across, pre-transition, as feminine or as having any signs that I would have identified as a woman. That tells me that, despite the immense diversity of expression among women, people still default to this idea that femininity is entirely in aesthetic and body language; that we're all just supposed to be girly, wear pink, giggle and have crushes on boys. Even if this were the case, making these characteristics apparent could compromise one's safety and security.

Personally, I've never really expressed any stereotypical masculinity, either. That would equally assume that all men must act macho, have muscles, be aggressive, and dominate a room; and that's not always true. This extreme polarising of gender is not only ignorant, but silly. People of all genders express themselves in all kinds of ways.

Why do we have to fit some stereotypical set of qualities and behaviors? Why do we have to wear dresses and heels, flail our arms around, and dance around the house to Katy Perry? Not that those things are bad, but not all women are like that. It has very little to do with gender, otherwise everyone would act uniformly and that would be boring. We are just far more complex creatures to be that way innately.

I wrote this following piece a while back on how I define femininity. This is my personal philosophy, and it has very little influence on my personal style, or my body language, or my overall expressiveness:

◬ "Femininity, to me, is a force of energy that encompasses life with love, compassion,
and the inherent desire to nurture and protect what is precious, holy and beautiful.

It is the essence of all that is calm, soft, expressive, and flowing. It is being emotionally
connected rather than emotionally repressed. It’s about a kind of vulnerability that allows
you to make that connection with finesse. It is intuition rather than calculation.

Both the masculine and the feminine display strength, except masculine strength comes
from tension whereas feminine strength comes from flexibility. It is also not about being
submissive and appeasing.

It’s about being true to yourself, finding your inner strength and self respect." ◬

I know who I am. You know who you are. My gender identity is unwavering, and I will always love what I love, and express myself that comes to me naturally. So will you. If that's not "feminine" enough for someone to justify our transition, then they need to take a much closer look at the world around them.

Illuminess, this is really interesting and something I am grappling with at the moment: How do I express my gender; rather than my gender identity.  So that's really confusing.  So what I mean is what does it mean to be female, as opposed to dress female?  What will it mean for me to be feminine?  I have had one day ever in femme mode, and it was mindblowing and also really normal.  I also suspect most would never consider me a possible transitioner, despite the fact that I wear clear varnish on my fingers (and yes, obviously its obvious!). So what I am trying to understand at the deepest level is what does it mean to be female.  And I think this is why I fall into the non-binary spectrum.  There are too many traits inherent in me that are masculine, that I enjoy and that I like to have as part of my personality toolbox.  I like male to female sexual intercourse.  I like the strength of my body, and the way it responds so quickly to any form of exercise (I am lucky here in that I am tall and slender).  I like male privilege.  I find it a very useful tool to have in my box and I also really like to use my male privilege to drive gender equality.  But I don't like my balding hair, I don't like my flat, hairy chest (I dream of breasts), I don't like to wear men's clothes all the time. I would love to pierce my ears but it would so upset my wife. So I still search for the kernel of gender - what does it mean.  And why do I want to be both, and present as both, especially considering that I was no different at all the day I presented femme.  My companion on that day saw no change, into girly expressions or any such thing.  My sense is that I have integrated my personality into a genderless space - I am the mom in my research group (all my students come to me with their problems and cry on my round table), I am the dad (I protect and provide for the group).  At home I have a balanced mix of tasks and chores, neither masculine nor feminine (except for all the maintenance and fixing bits - but I am an engineer so I do those things because of my skills, not who I am).  That is why I like your post:  what is femininity to me?  And to me it is a softness and beauty.  Soft skin, soft body, soft materials to wear, soft demeanour without overt testosterone driven aggression.  But it is a whole lot more than this, and I still seek ways to express my femininity when I am in male mode, because without that I feel terribly dysphoric. And the whole lot more than this - well, I carry on searching.

Well I quoted the whole string because I think it is very telling.  Gender is between the ears.  This has been said ad-nauseam by me and others, but I think that gender expression largely is too.  What you choose to look like on the outside is an incomplete representation of how we see ourselves, but a representation nevertheless.  The thing is it is modified by the reality of social expectations, our own needs and the needs of people that we care for.

I am sitting at a desk in my office, glasses on top of my head, wearing a skirt about 10 cm above the knee. a soft tee shirt, and sandals.  My nails are purple and I have on mascara and lip gloss. My measurements are 38C, 31, 36, (in inches). I weigh something like 63 kg and am  175 cm tall. I look something like this almost every day.  It is the expression of who I am and has become the expectation of those I work with.

Four years ago I would have been wearing jeans, sneakers and most likely an Aloha wear shirt.  I weighed 81 kg, measured 39/34/34 and was completely uncomfortable.  But that presentation was the accepted norm for me in my life and at work.  

I can wear those clothes today and will still be seen as a woman because that is the expectation and because that is who I am.  All that said there remain many traits in me that are masculine, particularly in behaviors that can be seen as dominant but are interpreted as assertive by the people who work for me and with me.  I think it is because assertiveness in a female leader is acceptable, dominance less so.  Hence the perception is the former.  I am still reasonably smart, reasonably decisive, and reasonably pleasant to work with.  But the perception by others is of a reasonable woman rather than a reasonable man.  My perception is of a reasonable person.

The  main difference that I see in myself is the dysphoria is no longer there and I feel the freedom to behave and look like how I perceive myself to be and how I feel about myself and the world at any given time.  I have a trans-man boyfriend who has described similar feelings to me, and a cis girlfriend who tells me I behave too much like a man. (usually when she is angry with me)

Gender specific behaviors mean little if they are not reflections of our authentic core.  That is why this forum is so important.  It reflects the core more than the expression.  Hopefully this little essay makes some sense, I'll read it again in a few hours - it may change. 

Best,
Ming

[Shan]

I think your essay was pretty good Ming, and the thoughts of others are just as valid.

Several years ago as I was just beginning to dip my feet in the waters of transition and while at the local shooting range, several of my then associates who were male were rolling their eyes about another obviously male person wearing a skort. My spouse had been doing my cuticles and nails back then and I had a nice coat of clear lacquer on them which was evident to all as I took up the slack on the trigger of my .44 Magnum pistol. I could shoot really tight groups at 25 yards which so many wished they could do, so I had a captive audience at the moment whereupon I said in a loud voice, "Seems like all the manly guys like to shoot big guns probably because they have little dicks!" Seems like kind of a stupid remark at this point, but at the time I was incensed at how these people were behaving, the eye rolling ceased.

[Deleted]

So I just had a really good session with my psychologist. She pointed out that equally importantly is the question of what does it mean to be me? This path of entering the non binary is forcing me to ask the most fundamental question: who am I. And the reason is that I am not fully who I thought I was.

[Shan]

Mar 9, 2016 21:16:54 GMT 8 @cherie said:

So I just had a really good session with my psychologist. She pointed out that equally importantly is the question of what does it mean to be me? This path of entering the non binary is forcing me to ask the most fundamental question: who am I. And the reason is that I am not fully who I thought I was.

I think that's a valid response, something we have all admitted to on various levels.

[Mingma]

Mar 9, 2016 21:16:54 GMT 8 @cherie said:

So I just had a really good session with my psychologist. She pointed out that equally importantly is the question of what does it mean to be me? This path of entering the non binary is forcing me to ask the most fundamental question: who am I. And the reason is that I am not fully who I thought I was.

I think that we put on a persona when we first begin to question fundamental truths about ourselves which are, in our own minds, uncomfortable or objectionable.  Eventually the persona collapses of its own limitations and we have to confront the truth about who we actually are.  That's been my story anyway.  Who you really are is the core under the facade, and that core is evolving even as it is being revealed.  I'm just grateful that we are not alone in the questioning.  I for one can convince myself that all sorts of things are true which are in reality only a fraction of what is real.

That is a big part of the power of this forum, and something for which I am grateful.  I am very glad you're sharing your journey with all of us.

Ming

[Ativan Prescribed]

Mar 9, 2016 21:16:54 GMT 8 @cherie said:

So I just had a really good session with my psychologist. She pointed out that equally importantly is the question of what does it mean to be me? This path of entering the non binary is forcing me to ask the most fundamental question: who am I. And the reason is that I am not fully who I thought I was.

I agree with you and Shan.
It seems like a lifetime of asking that question.
Once I was done with High School, my life seemed to turn corners every 2-3 yrs.
Whether job or moving, or both, I had to readjust and that also meant asking who I am.
'She' has gone through some remarkable changes over the years.
I grew up through school and through a macho man-up where people did see 'girl tendencies'.
As I grew up I learned to hide them, and then 'she' transformed them into something acceptable for me.
The common thought was always, 'I'm graceful, dammit, not girlie'.
'She' toughen up, learned to swear, drink, shoot, ride Harley's and have more than enough swagger to hang out with the big boys.
Damn, I feel like having a cigar right about now, lol...

[Shan]

Mar 10, 2016 2:25:42 GMT 8 Ativan Prescribed said:

Mar 9, 2016 21:16:54 GMT 8 @cherie said:

So I just had a really good session with my psychologist. She pointed out that equally importantly is the question of what does it mean to be me? This path of entering the non binary is forcing me to ask the most fundamental question: who am I. And the reason is that I am not fully who I thought I was.

'She' toughen up, learned to swear, drink, shoot, ride Harley's and have more than enough swagger to hang out with the big boys.
Damn, I feel like having a cigar right about now, lol...

Will head on down the road on Harley's, park at the lake and enjoy a few shots of loudmouth and a Cuban, meet you there!l

[Ativan Prescribed]

[Trinity]

Deal me in...

[Shan]

Mar 10, 2016 6:55:09 GMT 8 Trinity said:

Deal me in...

You can have a lemonade instead of the shots kid! Gonna ride "Bitch" on one of the Harley's?