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Post by Trinity on Jan 19, 2016 19:16:38 GMT 8
Its an interesting discussion here. And a sensitive one.
The binary polarization as described by River and the Nonbinary by Jayce are what caused (binary)and then solved (nonbinary)some of my gendersplitting.
Its taken a long time to take those traits and let them be genderfree.
Hormones do affect but never changed my thought process, but they do make me feel both better and more deeply.
I still see myself as a neither or both. Unique gender. I like it.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Jan 19, 2016 21:25:16 GMT 8
Sensitive is one way to put it.
People are more than their gender, people are more than their hormones.
To focus on those two aspects, everything else be damned, I can't fathom thinking in such a black-and-white view.
It reminds me all too much of the mentality forced upon me to be a stereotypically masculine transguy otherwise I would face discrimination and mockery from the very community that I thought was a safe home for me to feel supported.
I find it interesting discussion too, Trinity but will be backing off as I fear I'm making things much too personal than need to be. I apologise to Illuminess if I came across as attacking her, I hope it's not taken personally.
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Post by Kira on Jan 19, 2016 21:41:41 GMT 8
People see what they want to see.
My parents also told me that I didn't previously show any female tendencies, but I would wear crop tops, elaborate make up, glittery stuff, quite stereotypical stuff, but they didn't see it as feminine, they saw it as 'shock value' stuff. My baking and sewing wasn't female. Because they thought in binary terms and they already had me pegged as male, so anything I did was male. The same as my sister wearing football stuff all the time. Not once did they question her gender or activities or notch them up as 'male' because she is female. They don't see it and they sure as hell don't understand it, it gets written off.
There isn't really anything to look for beyond stereotypes but wearing a sombrero and drinking tequila doesn't make you a Mexican, if you want to know if someone is Mexican, ask them. There might be people who would disagree on whether they are because their grandfather came from cyprus, so they are not a 'true Mexican' in their eyes and they might not have shown signs of being Mexican, but if someone tells me that they are Mexican, I tend to, you know, just believe them and let them determine their identity.
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Post by Trinity on Jan 20, 2016 7:01:00 GMT 8
Freedom to be and let others think whatever they want and us not care about it. Nor tolerate cruelty of deliberate misgendering. The rest just seems to be who we are. I too was hit hard by forced gender roles. But not by trans....yet. Hard to get over that one. Forced behavior. Thought we all walked away grom that.
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Post by Trinity on Jan 22, 2016 18:35:56 GMT 8
There are several t girls in my life that expect me to fully transition. They are binary trans without casting off yheir male pasts. They say i will fully go full timecshe, lose all. I dont think so.
I still wonder at male vs female instincts. And at why i just dont feel onevwith any gender other than transpeople.
I honestly see femininity the same way as River. Masculinity i can also agree with. But those attributes are not limited or required in either the male or female sex. It seems however to be more typical imo.
Does this trigger? It assigns attributes to a sex, but is that right or wrong?
There is no limit to our attributes. I like the feminine characteristics. I have both sets.
I hope River continues to chat about it here. It is a good topic, we should be able to let go of past hurts by stereotype enforcers and findvthevtruth of it. Why letvtheir past bullying mess up our current convo? And thats part of the topic too.
Trinity
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Post by EchelonHunt on Jan 22, 2016 21:25:11 GMT 8
I too, hope Illuminess joins in again. I strongly believe this topic can go to a very insightful and thought-provoking place which may help members or wandering guests in the days, months, years to come.
You'd think that since I'm genderless that things regarding gender shouldn't effect me as much as it does. But it does.
It's complex and it doesn't help that I have so many feelings regarding gender; identity, feelings, expression/presentation, roles, stereotypes and the relationship gender has with society in general.
Identity & Feelings:[/b]
I am genderless but I experience fluctuations of not female/male but femininity and masculinity. They weave together into something intangible. I do not bother assigning things like "lingerie", "skirts", "sympathy", "love" to femininity, "logic", "strength", "suits", "anger" to masculinity because this causes a dangerous disconnect in my mind, it creates opposing forces that fight against one another and balance is lost.
I don't assign gendered traits to my feelings, hobbies, clothing, hairstyle because it's dangerous to my mental state. I truly believe all aforementioned things are genderless, in that they embody the person's self, one that is stripped of gender.
Let's say gender did not exist, you would still like the same things you've liked all along, yes? Its natural, innate.
I do, however, assign male to the feelings I experience when I am stricken from gender dysphoria. I know without a doubt that my body must be male. My dislike of my secondary female sexual characteristics, it's very male...ish. I think, "These don't belong on my body. It doesn't represent what my body looks like inside my mind." Estrogen wrecks havoc on my mind and whether or not it's because my mind registers estrogen as female or not, I just know my mind and body disagrees with it on a very deep level.
Expression & Presentation:[/b]
I present androgynous or a femboy. I feel most comfortable dressing this way as my facial features have always been androgynous so I embrace this. I used to present binary male but people assumed I must be a lesbian because girl with short hair = lesbian. It is such a superficial way to judge that oh my, a girl with short hair MUST be a lesbian. Since when does haairstyle determine who I get into bed with? Its so illogical.
Roles, Stereotypes & Relationship with Society:[/b]
I was assumed to be fulfilling my role as a female by wearing jewellery, cleaning, sewing and gushing over how cool male actors were. I was not a male in my parents eyes as I was not into cars, kicking a football around or doing hardware stuff. Um, okay??? I know girls who were more masculine than me and they identified as girls. Assigning gender to roles... like even in sex, bottom is considered the submissive/female role. Top is dominant/male role. I like being bottom, does this make me less male than a guy who enjoys topping all the time?
Does women who have the ability to become pregnant, are they more women, praised by people and society for doing their woman role in life than women who are unable to conceive (cis or trans) or simply do not want to have children?
Are men who ejaculate sperm, have full set genitalia, have unassisted erections, are they more men than the men who do not have all of their genitalia, either by accident, chose to remove them (cis) or deciding against bottom surgery, keeping their original anatomy (trans)?
Society places so much emphasis on genitalia and roles based on them. If you go against the norm, go against what is expected of you from society and family, you get punished, ridiculed, treated as something abnormal rather than being accepted for simply being unique, being yourself as you know yourself to be.
In closing, I just wish to go through life, being who I am and not have to satisfy what people deem to be life must-need requirements which are based on age-old concepts of gender & ssex that restricts my fluidity to be myself, whatever that may be. I spent years being suffocated by rules and guidelines that forced me to be something I am not, while being brought up as female and while I lived as a binary FTM male. I am tired of satisfying other people's view or perception of what they believe to be "true" gender.
I don't care about being female enough, male enough or trans enough. I just want to be ME, that is more than enough for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 6:35:08 GMT 8
OK this is my opinion and everyone here knows I have one big ass mouth. I just wish I had the big ass lips to go with it though. But seriously though. Gender feelings are no joke. I feel drawn way more toward female than male. Regardless of my birth gender. No I see and feel my true self as more female than male. I mean really? OK so some of us that are genetic male or female never displayed those tendencies. Yeah some of us hid it. Some of us tried to hide it but were called gay. Some of us it just busted through no matter what the fuck we did to try and fool others. Damn I have a penis and I am about the most Girly Girl that I know. Yeah tis sounds stereotypical but I can't stomach hunting, I don't condemn others because I can cook the hell out of some wild game. I like chick flicks. I will cry every time either happy or sad tears. I love reading romantic novels and dream of a longhaired Adonis rescuing me from a black tower and villain. Again: I guess I am a walking talking stereotype, right? Wrong. I am a unique woman and no other person is quite like me. I am femme for sure. But not quite a woman either. Maybe a woman with a "little more". I can live with that as long as I get treated like a woman or at least respected and cherished for my femininity. But no two people are the same. This is what was wrong before and should not be held over here. OK so I am femme and I fully embrace that and love the shit out of it. I love my little boobs, my hair, my smooth skin, my sexy lingerie, my makeup and so on. Yeah it gets expensive but damn. To me it is worth it. But this is just me and on out of roughly 8 billion people and no two are alike. I can pose as a man as long as I wear a T shirt and jeans. If I wear shorts then game off with my hairstyle. Even with a T and jeans I get perplexed looks because of my hair ( it is more girly than ever and I love it. So many compliments too even. That is a real fucking thinker there ). Screw them. OK so this is just my opinion but who cares what percentage of what I am? As long as the person that loves me accepts me with who I'm happy as, who cares? As long as I am comfortable with who I am and how I present and confident, who cares? No one should but we have people that do believe their way of life is the only way. They are the fools not us. I think we have a pretty good handle on things even though societal bullshit has taken our lives by our own hands. We know ourselves better than most people do because we really feel. We feel true emotions and when we cry it isn't "crocodile tears" for the sake of image. Our tears are real because we feel. I AM ME. Take me or leave me. I am femme trans or MTF more than anything. Non binary? Yeah I can pose but the truth is I am female, feel female, pose female and express emotionally female all the way. So I maybe binary but am I really? I don't want my outie to be an innie unless born that way. Yeah my boobs are small but natural. Oh shit I actually have cleavage. I shave my legs and underarms. I have no facial hair. I have long hair on my head. I have bangs that are a little sexy, blunt and sort of like Bailey's. the rest now is shoulder length and curly and cute even if I say so myself. No complaints yet but compliments even. I wear women clothing and a bra some of the time. Guys clothing( yuck ) some of the time. Sorry but it just don't feel right or nearly as sensual as women's clothing and shoes. BUT. A really big big BUT. This is me. And me only. Everyone is different. Everyone feels different. Everyone and I do mean everyone even cis people, feel differnent shades of gender. I am on the Femme side. Others are on the Masculine side but most fall somewhere in between and most won't even admit it and those that do are considered, in my opinion, nonbinary trans. The rest of society is either full cis or in full denial. So gender is something you can hide if you feel you need too. Or embrace if you feel you need to. But just because may mean you hid it from others and maybe even yourself and that is not psychologically healthy. I mean Jeffery Dahmer lured gay guys, had sex with them and then killed them and then ate them. That would be like me mooing at a cow, performing beastiality (UGHH.) then killing them and then eating a big ass NY strip. I could never be a rancher because I fall in love with animals as pets and someone wants to kill and butcher my pet steer, no beastiality involved just love for an a pet animal. Wow that took a wierd turn. But I guess what I'm saying is that we are all individuals with varying degrees of our own gender perceptions and those need to be respected. Especially by others with varying gender perspectives and sexual orientation. I mean a really good friend of mine is gay but has absolutely no knowledge of Trans plights. He even thought we couold serve in the US military after DADT was repealed. I guess ignorance isnlt limited to cis poeple only but LGBs too and even us as Ts.
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Post by Trinity on Jan 23, 2016 6:50:53 GMT 8
There is a ton of stuff in the thread now.
Jayce and I have some similarities, maybe even a lot, I don't know, and the first thing I see is body dysphoria, which we share, and genderblend vs gendersplit, which is paramount in maintaining our sanity. Gendersplit, where polarized gender of male and female take over, is extremely painful for me, causes wicked dysphoria and sends my mind close to the edge. Gender begins to swing all over the place. The antidote is genderblend, which is feeling all of my gender at the same time, feeling everything simultaneaously, while aware of my body being what it needs to be. And that is a very physically feminine person, though I hide that outwardly at work, and act like a guy around the guys. Not act, am.
Now, what does that mean. It means I relate to them in that way. Just as I can relate to a woman in that way. Just as I can relate to a gay woman in their way. It doesn't stop. Each social experience brings out another part of the multifaceted gender experience of me. But Trinity remains Trinity, my body, self, core, its just me. Sh'e is a blended person, sh'e is unique to h'erself and is starting to really come into h'er own.
But as to instincts, and I think I have said this before, my instincts are also a blend. My reactions are a blend. Nothing is quite polarized now, it is a different perspective. So I say I am free of the matrix of gender. Maybe I overuse the analogy, but the outward and social becomes something to mold, be, flow with, use. I love doing that.
That is how I preserve sanity. But the forcing of a state of mind, whether it be binary male, female or nonbinary androgynous or gender queer or genderfuck, sorry to say it like that, Forcing that position on another person to me is just not healthy. It seems to point to a fear or insecurity within them that says "do as I do and be as I am, or you are not a real... fill in the blank...
Like the idea of full time being defined as on the job and everything, meaning kiss my ass goodbye if I do that again up here, just to get hormones or get surgury. The SOC fixed that, insurance however enforces it. It is just as much a part of the problem as the macho guys that are macho cause they can't handle feelings, or the girly girls that are that way because of whatever it is that did that, I have no idea what it is that causes a human being to become a caricature of gender as opposed to being their gender.
And I see that caricature stuff, it baffles me personally.
There is nothing wrong with being a girl with the stereotypical attributes, a guy with it, if its NATURAL to the person experiencing this as their truth. There is EVERYTHING wrong with it when it is forced, and unnatural for the person trying to live up to it.
Freedom came when I stopped caring about being read as an effeminate guy, because I am not a guy. So why do I care what guys think? Or anyone else? Including, with great respect to the binaries in here, no offense, but including transfolks that are full out target gender? Its when denial hits, of themselves, of us, that hell breaks loose too.
So I have no issue with anything on the thread, it points out some really important things, and maybe exposes some of the trigger spots that we have. For we trigger when we are afraid of something, whether its being read, clocked, dysphoric, unbalanced, or anything else.
For the nonbinary, for me and Jayce, being fully aware of that blend is paramount to our mental safety. Yet we are both very physically towards the target gender binary. Nothing wrong with that at all, its our truths and our freedoms. I enjoy being out in leather and a hat and looking great as a guy, even though I know whats always underneath that physically and sexually. Its a really cool thing to be able to do that. And to be full out girl, and to be the blends. Its just plain cool, its not the typical all or nothing narative at all, yet our dysphoria is pretty darned all or nothing. Take away my hormones someone better get here fast....
Rules and guidelines, yup, who needs it. We satisfy ourselves in our genders, no more like, we become ourselves and nobody has the right to interfere with this. I do care about being ME enough, and quite a bit. I want to be truth.
And Jayce, I think your gender is priceless. And I love watching the growth of the girls too, of Kira and of River. I take joy in watching all of you bloom into the wonders you are meant to be. Everyone, Aisla, Foxy, Zax, Lee, and anyone I left out, Jamie, all of us, blooming into ourselves, its truly an amazing thing to watch. Sorry for anyone I didn't mention.
Love to all here
Sh'e, they, the Fairy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 7:22:47 GMT 8
Again... my point wasn't to demonise men or testosterone. I know we all have a bit of both, and they both provide a purpose. I'm simply saying that they individually have their own specific and unique characteristics that manifest most obviously in their naturally occurring extremes. Testosterone is what makes a person more aggressive (and I don't mean more hostile), and Estrogen makes a person more mental (not meaning more neurotic).
"Tension" doesn't mean stressed or forceful, but simply more... intense. It's a different kind of strength than what comes with estrogen. Not worse than, just different, like comparing a stone to a pillow, or a tourniquet to a ribbon.
I do admit that from my experiences with men that I've grown a bit wary of their intentions (depending on their overall attitude) but I'm not misandrist. I'm definitely a goddess-loving, radical feminist, though; just not man-hating... more like men-conscious. Any gender is capable of being hostile, but it's one's levels of testosterone-fuelled adrenaline that make a person more impulsive without concern to consequence.
These are observations from experience, not baseless opinions. It's not a personal philosophy, just simple conclusions from observed patterns of behaviour. I'm a psychology scholar, not a social justice warrior.
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Post by Trinity on Jan 23, 2016 11:11:42 GMT 8
Estrogen affects me in a way that frees the emotions. I remain aggressive and even fierce at times, but it feels different.
T, if i remember right, made me manic. Or driven. I dont do well with it.
Cool descriptions, language.
Oddly tonight my dysphoria is high. I was called on to be too much in guy mode and it whiplashed. But corrective actions worked. Im on the train guy, for safety, its late. I need badly to be myself...
The big thing for me is, why am i so needful of things that are asspcoated with femininity, i know my sexuality is female, my body too except i can take or leave the passive penis...
Yeah i unbalanced a little, but the thread bears discussion. I need the full me, and estrogen is paramount. As to guys, well, im stuck there cause i want to be laid by them and cant.
Its like its just...i am a transperson and need to live it. Sh'e. Me. Not male not female but...sh'e. And i can only describe her as feminine. Without dq ing the other parts of me. Sh'e is physically dominant. He takes care of her. I am all of it.
Estrogen helps me feel ok.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Jan 23, 2016 19:29:21 GMT 8
@illuminess - I understand what you mean now Illuminess, thank you for taking the time to clarify. I am really dense but the way you wrote that has definately made it easier for me to understand what you mean and where you were coming from. Thank you! There are no hard feelings on my end, I have never thought of you as a social justice warrior and I'm sorry if I have ever made you feel like you were treated as one. Trinity - The wrong hormone sucks the life and colour out of the world surrounding the person. The right hormone puts life and colour back into the world. Estrogen made me see no future for myself, my mind in constant disarray, I felt I was spiraling out of control, in a car capulted down a hill with cut brakes. I was filled with self-hatred, self-loathing, misery and fear. I used to lash out and physically hit people, one of them being my sister because she would persistently pick on me, even when I told her to please stop it, leave me alone, she kept going at me. I snapped... I didn't deal well with teasing back then. My sense of self was extremely fragile. Testosterone gave me a future, it gave me the tools to fix the brakes and allow me to avoid certain death. When people tease me, I give it back 110% Instead of holding my breath, paralysed in fear, I can finally breathe. Amazing what the correct hormones in our systems does, even though we are on opposite ends, so to speak.
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Post by Trinity on Jan 23, 2016 20:55:42 GMT 8
Same results but instead of hitting id push it in self destructive behavior and compulsions.
And one of the things i love about nb is that the birth organs dont matter much, its like mirror images. And i think ftms are hot.
I'm emotional this morning. Very. Actually on the edge of tears. Unrelated to the thread.
Be warriors. There is nothing wrong with it. I am. And nothing wrong with radical writer either.
Loving blessings.
Trinity
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 20:59:51 GMT 8
I was in a rough place emotionally, so I'm sorry about overreacting. Still, I hate it when people get my meanings wrong. It happens a lot from people who would prefer to insist upon their own interpretations instead of maturely discussing things. I just don't have the patience anymore to keep re-explaining.
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Post by Trinity on Jan 24, 2016 8:17:10 GMT 8
I think we are past that now.
Where it goes forward....no idea.
Folks are folks and patience and grace are always needed, for us all to grow.
Trin.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 8:40:11 GMT 8
Look humans will be human no matter how much you want to put them in one category or another. They will make a fool of you every time. I have seen really manly men and really femme guys and I have seen some really masculine women and some real girly girls.
So if all women were girly girls and all men were manly men, I think I would just dissipate or disappear because what fun would that be? The variances of masculine and feminine qualities make us unique even though it may be mismatched or mixed matched or we embrace one over the other or whatever else. It is what defines our individuality and our uniqueness.
This may sound really fucked up and dangerous in certain areas and countries but... Why let society define a person of who he or she is instead of the person's own self identity? Some of us don't. Some of us have paid the ultimate price in order to express ourselves. Others have taken their own lives because of societal pressures. Some are successful expressing ourselves and make ourselves successful and even famous or infamous.
But with all that said people are people and there will be assholes. There will also be some that are sympathetic and others that just don't give a fuck and will live and let live. Unfortunately everyone has an asshole and most seem to want to show that side of themselves but a lot of people also are of the other two categories and don't care or live and let live.
I really don't know what this has to do with no one having seen any girl tendencies but if you are like a lot of people you hid them from everyone except yourself. I tried but they still shone through all the BS that I put out. And then some refuse to see either the girl or boy tendencies in either a biological transgender male or female. "It's just a phase" is a big one. "Just a little experimentation" is another one. Action figures and dolls are only different as to whether boys or girls play with them and what gender they are geared toward. Hell a Barbie doll is and action figure or a Star Wars action figure is a doll. What is he real difference other than the name of what we call the toys?
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