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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 22:31:27 GMT 8
Well, I had this friend from one of my Facebook groups unfriend me. He posted something about feeling frustrated and depressed over certain life situations. I posted something from my Illuminess page explaining how life isn't about all these material things, but about striving for a better overall experience. This is the conversation, and it's really sad.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on May 3, 2015 23:14:42 GMT 8
It can be hard for someone with depression going on to be accepting of help, I know it's counter intuitive, but that isn't so much anger as it is frustration talking. I'm not the best person to be around when my depression is at it's worst, I often lash out at those who are trying to help. Luckily, most of those people understand it just my depression talking, and I would like nothing more than to find something to stop it. I've heard it all it seems, from people who are trying to help, and despite knowing their intentions are good, my depression pushes them away. Sometimes the very best a person can do is to just say they are there for me when I'm ready. Makes me stop to think after awhile. Shifts the focus of the depression from the whoa is me, to I'm just being frustrated with everything, even from those who want to help. When I'm depressed, I know what I want when I see it or hear it, not always what people want to tell in ways to help. I have to want their help and have to see it for what it is and not just my depression making me an emotional mess. Sometimes just giving me the space to find my way to that is the best anyone can do for me. I wouldn't take it personally, what sounds like anger is often frustration at not being able to accept the help in front of me. It can be a path of frustration that I am on, on my way to a better path that I can accept comfort from others wanting to help. Even though I've been through it countless times, it's always hard to pin down what is causing it. Until I can see that for myself, anything else but that one thing is pretty much a useless effort and I never feel like explaining that I don't know why I am depressed. It can be a difficult circle of frustration to find my way out of. Depression can be a very deeply personal thing, hard to step away from. When it feels like everything is against you, it's hard to see those things that are not.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 9:06:43 GMT 8
Pretty much what Ativan said. Depression is rarely hostile, to me this reads as frustration. One of the hardest things to do when supporting someone with depression is just holding space for them. If it was as easy as just changing your mindset people with depression wouldn't be depressed, but the truth is you can be in a really positive place and know that you're making positive changes but you just can't feel it. You meant well, but remember that people with mental health issues hear this kind of advice all the time and after a while it just feels condescending because people just aren't listening to you. You obviously care, but it is very very hard to really support someone with depression. I know I probably could have handled the situation better, but I think I did pretty well. I hate resorting to hostility and insults, as you know. This is what I posted to him: And since it's something I wrote it's not all a bunch of "new agey" crap; it's just encouraging you to stop trying so hard and thinking material things are the key to happiness. The key to getting on that road to happiness is taking action and seeing your life as a worthy challenge to master. It's the best thing to tell someone who is genuinely seeking help or answers. I'm not someone who placates and candy-coats. You can think positively all you want, but you won't see any results without putting in the effort; without initiating your will. It's a realistic perspective, and so far removed from some crap like The Secret.
But this person wasn't terribly stable when I sent them a friend request. We got along just fine until I made that post. I tried my best to let them know that I believed they deserved whatever happiness they sought, but unfortunately seemed to translate it as "shut up you whiny baby and be a man".
He kept saying he wanted people to actually talk to him, but was that not what I was doing? The mature response to my post would have been more like, "I appreciate the sentiment, but I really don't need to hear that right now. Can we just talk?" I would have taken a new direction immediately if that had been the case. Oh well. Can't win them all.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 2:13:57 GMT 8
I agree with what Ativan and Dreadful Faery said.
Depression effects people differently. They can be hostile, they can be enraged, They can feel crushing sadness, desperation and there is really no one way it can manifest itself. A lot of times people are screaming for help but it comes across as anything but wanting help. They may attack you verbally or whatever else. Whether they want it or not they really need the help and to know someone cares and then let them have at you. It may actually have made them feel better telling someone to fuck off. Manic depression is the worst. From what I have been told the manic episodes don't have to be all cheery and energetically creative. It can manifest itself in anger. It does me anyway.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on May 5, 2015 9:57:20 GMT 8
Yep, sometimes the strength of hostility is actually wanting a response in kind. To scream it out of yourself. But most of the time, you don't want to hurt someone else, just because you're off right then. Bipolar is even worse, you go from a nice good feeling about yourself and the world to one of doom 'n gloom. It can happen in a matter of just minutes, one minute everything is just fine, the next nothing is. How do you find out what caused it so you can backtrack your way out of that? It's difficult. It allows ruminating to start in, as if circling around the same thing is going to magically make you understand it. As if doing it over and over will yield a different result sooner or later. Ruminating is the very worst you can fall into. It does make you hostile, advice, no matter how right it is, is not listened to, you just interrupted the thought process that I was just about to have a breakthrough in... It is a difficult thing for the person who is depressed, to actually listen and even think about advice, 'why are you to telling me how to do this???' It feels like that pretty much all the way though it. Clinical depression is not just feeling really down or sad. It's a disorder that is magnitudes more than that. And even when it start's to lift, you have to deal with that you bit someones head off who was just trying to help, and you know they were. The levels of guilt that go along with it can be horrific as well, but you never know. It always, always feels like it's worse than any other time. It's a mental maze and you are trying to find your way out in a fog that it is engulfed in. At night. In a rainstorm. Lightning lights your way. Advice just doesn't cut it. Cut the fog for me so I can see my way out... Telling me it's sunny on the outside, I just have to go there, it doesn't help. Honestly, sometimes the simple act of someone giving you advice seems to make it worse, and there is no logic in this, which is why it is so hard to deal with. There isn't a trained psychologist or therapist in the world who can help, other than to give you space. I've been placed in psyche units too many times to know that's true, and they will tell you this. I've asked them to help, they tell me they are there. They can't say some magic psychic babble babble that works, you have to find the right question and you don't know what that is, neither do they. You ask them for help and you get nothing that works, it pisses you off, there is no logic in that, you just asked and you get 'when you are ready'. So you reject everything and everyone in the hope that the one thing you're looking for will show up in that space you created. 'Get away from me, leave me alone!' Sometimes that means just back off a bit, don't say anything except that you will be there if they need you, that's comforting, always. Even if it seems to piss you off and you act like it, deep down, it is a comfort to know someone is willing to do that for you. That's all I really mean when I tell you to go away, to fuck off, to fuck off and die, that if you don't I just might do it for you... It's never really true. Sometimes I just want you to try as hard as I am to cope with it, I want you to be so emotionally charged up that it will jar it loose from me. Best to not engage me at that point, I just might try it, I've been known to and so have others. It doesn't work anyways... Advice is like telling a drowning person how to take swimming lessons. It's not like they don't know, it's just the wrong time to do that. Better to just throw out that line and tell them you'll pull them in when they are ready for you. You have to wait for them to grab the line and tell you to pull. Don't say you understand, just say you'll be there. That little bit of comfort that you might only feel deep down is the best, you know someone cares and they just threw you that life line. Sometimes that gives a person something else to center their thoughts on, and if it does, they'll see that line and grab ahold of it. It's the best a person can do for clinical depression. If it is just a deep sadness or feeling down, advice does work sometimes, but space and being there always does.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 20:08:01 GMT 8
OK this is what sux. The whole bipolar deal. I have even been diagnosed as being bipolar. Straight from a Psychiatrist. I wished I was bipolar because at least I would have some highs in there somewhere. When I asked about her diagnosis she told me that the Manic episodes could come out as anger or irritability. Damn. Just my luck, depression and/or irritability. This is just my opinion though but I believe Bipolar disorder is way over diagnosed. Because for me there are no highs. So how the hell can I be Bipolar? If I am it isn't very common Bipolar Disorder.
I don't want to make this thread about me but what I experience sounds a lot like your friend Arin. I have a really hard time opening up but from all the signs and symptoms I believe I suffer more from Major Depression, not bipolar. Thoughts of death or suicide is a big one and I think about death quite a bit like not caring one way or the other. I am not suicidal so it seems that I got labeled as bipolar for the lack of that. So when I do try to open up it comes out more as irritability than sadness and the other symptoms of Major Depression. So I deal with it day by day still. I have found outlets for it though and ways to use it.
Like I said though, your friend sounds a lot like what I experience. Lashing out instead of asking for help. Feeling anger that is unfounded against someone else just because they are there. Sometimes a scream for help comes out as a war cry. Give the person time. Maybe I am bipolar, maybe not so much. But it does affects everyone different.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 20:19:56 GMT 8
OK this is what sux. The whole bipolar deal. I have even been diagnosed as being bipolar. Straight from a Psychiatrist. I wished I was bipolar because at least I would have some highs in there somewhere. When I asked about her diagnosis she told me that the Manic episodes could come out as anger or irritability. Damn. Just my luck, depression and/or irritability. This is just my opinion though but I believe Bipolar disorder is way over diagnosed. Because for me there are no highs. So how the hell can I be Bipolar? If I am it isn't very common Bipolar Disorder. I don't want to make this thread about me but what I experience sounds a lot like your friend Arin. I have a really hard time opening up but from all the signs and symptoms I believe I suffer more from Major Depression, not bipolar. Thoughts of death or suicide is a big one and I think about death quite a bit like not caring one way or the other. I am not suicidal so it seems that I got labeled as bipolar for the lack of that. So when I do try to open up it comes out more as irritability than sadness and the other symptoms of Major Depression. So I deal with it day by day still. I have found outlets for it though and ways to use it. Like I said though, your friend sounds a lot like what I experience. Lashing out instead of asking for help. Feeling anger that is unfounded against someone else just because they are there. Sometimes a scream for help comes out as a war cry. Give the person time. Maybe I am bipolar, maybe not so much. But it does affects everyone different. Whenever I open up when I'm depressed I can sometimes seem very melancholic and nihilistic. I've never experienced lashing out or being hostile towards those trying to help me, I just get really negative like "no, that can't happen because blahblahblah" or "whatever, I don't see how this and that is going to help me do that and this". Well, the only times I've been snappy is when someone keeps pushing an issue after I've already told them I'm not interested.
So, I can't really relate to my "friend"s issue, so it just comes across to me as mean and dickish. I'm actually very good at helping people out of their depression. It's been a gift of mine since I was a kid. It runs in the family, really. We're all pretty much armchair therapists. But there's no way for me to help someone who won't give me some kind of obvious invitation. "Leave me alone" does not translate to me as "don't leave me alone".
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Post by Annys on May 6, 2015 3:25:46 GMT 8
To be fair, I wouldn't have reacted very well to your responses, either. -Both- sides of a conversation can be completely, 100% well-intentioned, but come across as something else entirely. That kind of seems like what's happening here. From "I guess not your kind of caring. Sorry for trying" and on, your comments read as somewhat dismissive, or "I've already given up on you." Can you see how they might be read that way, despite your intentions?
It sounds like, even if some link were a sort of "miracle cure", your friend wouldn't have looked at it anyway. When reaching out for help, it's easy to be focused on HOW that help comes. If it's not in the desired manner, we can blind ourself to it, no matter the intentions or efficacy of the rejected manner of help. I certainly don't know the whole story, but from that little snippet, that really sounds like what's going on. It doesn't matter WHAT the content of your link was, what they were crying out for was a more personal touch (and not necessarily one with "solutions").
"Leave me alone IF" (with a caveat) does not necessarily translate to a simple "leave me alone."
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 3:44:17 GMT 8
To be fair, I wouldn't have reacted very well to your responses, either. -Both- sides of a conversation can be completely, 100% well-intentioned, but come across as something else entirely. That kind of seems like what's happening here. From "I guess not your kind of caring. Sorry for trying" and on, your comments read as somewhat dismissive, or "I've already given up on you." Can you see how they might be read that way, despite your intentions? It sounds like, even if some link were a sort of "miracle cure", your friend wouldn't have looked at it anyway. When reaching out for help, it's easy to be focused on HOW that help comes. If it's not in the desired manner, we can blind ourself to it, no matter the intentions or efficacy of the rejected manner of help. I certainly don't know the whole story, but from that little snippet, that really sounds like what's going on. It doesn't matter WHAT the content of your link was, what they were crying out for was a more personal touch (and not necessarily one with "solutions"). "Leave me alone IF" (with a caveat) does not necessarily translate to a simple "leave me alone." Well, the problem with the internet is that you don't have body language or tone of voice. All you have are words which are going to be interpreted however a person decides to. I said "I guess not your kind of caring. Sorry for trying" because I felt dismissed. He hadn't spoken like that to me the day before, so it came as a shock, and I felt like a dog that was just kicked in the ribs.
His "leave me alone if" just assumed that I didn't care, and that doesn't register in my brain. If I didn't care I wouldn't have bothered saying anything at all. I would have ignored the post. But it really doesn't matter now, because that 'friendship' was closed. I really have no idea how I'm supposed to empathise when I have nothing else to go on besides words on a screen. It was just a bad moment of communication.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on May 6, 2015 6:18:25 GMT 8
Depression is a very broad word that covers a lot of things, very few of us have any more knowledge about it other than our own experiences with it. If those experiences don't line up with others experiences, it can become a problem in communication, words on a page make it even harder. I can say i'm depressed and it's true, even if I'm feeling sad for a personal reason.
It can range into clinical depression, and even major depression to depression from bipolar can be two entirely different things, they are even treated differently. But they all have their roots in a degree of sadness, but that is just one of many symptoms that there are. Just the shear number of antidepressants in the prescription market and the very lack of an over the counter medication shows the varying degrees it can manifest itself. It's the number one of 'negative' moods and also the number one disorder that psychologists deal with.
One thing is very clear to me, is that it is never a blame game kind of thing, you either can help or you can't, it isn't personal unless you make it that way.
There are some people who excel at helping out even the worse symptoms of depression that isn't clinical. But it's not a one size fits all kind of thing, either. There are far to many variables in depression and clinical depression to find a single thing or even program that works. It's a hands on type of thing, it takes being open to more than just your own experience to even know if you are helping or not. Sometimes what seems to be working is just the other person agreeing in the hopes that by agreeing, it will help, and sometimes it does.
But I'll tell everyone this, based on my own experience, placing blame anywhere is nonproductive to counter productive. There simply isn't anymore basis for blame.
Want to take whatever strides a person may be making, want to take something simple and turn it into something more complex that is then even harder to deal with, place blame where none exists and place it on the person who is depressed, you don't even have to point it at them, even if you point it at yourself, it becomes another facet of it and it becomes a part of anyone's guilt for feeling depressed, a classic symptom that is often overlooked in the face of all the other ones. (say that in one breath...)
Guilt itself can bring on fits of depression, I'm sure anyone can see why it can. It's closely related to sadness, it can bring it on. You do what you can, most people when depressed can understand that it is simply trying, but if it isn't working, don't make an issue out of it. One of the hardest things to move past is the instinctive impression that nobody is going to understand why you're depressed. Guilt right there.
The devil in the details is that every sense of logic is thrown out of balance, it is getting that balance back that works, how you do that is never the same. So whether it is sad that the neighbors cat is looking at you from the window while they are at work to that undefinable clinical depression, it is balance. Balance of emotions are temporarily out of whack or long term out of whack. If what you have to say or do isn't helping in that way, it isn't helping. There is no fault, there is no blame. There is no amount of blaming that is going to work, it is like trying to shame someone out of being depressed. I've had those reactions, you do lash out at those and with good reason. It really matters just what kind of depression you are talking about. It's even a symptom of worse things that might be wrong. And you might not know what those are. There is no more room in placing blame than there is for it in being trans. Does there even need to be something to blame? Usually not. It's a by product of not being able to help or a convenient excuse to not help. Blame is a symptom of yet another disorder as well.
Dealing with your own or others depression can be looked at like fishing. You can spend a lifetime dealing with it and learning everything there is to know. Sometimes you're just not going to catch a fish that day no matter what you do. It's useless to place blame there as well. It isn't going to make a fish magically show up next to you. Wrong bait or no fish? Fish not biting for some reason or no fish? Depression is like that for those who treat it and for those who can help with it at times. You can have a lifetime of knowledge and it still might not work. But just like in fishing, there is always tomorrow and it takes a lot of patience. Good place to throw in a favorite of mine, There is a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like an idiot. In other words, if you don't have that line that is a connection, you are wasting your time. All the know how and all the finest of gear won't do you a bit of good if you don't have that line.
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Post by Annys on May 6, 2015 6:36:27 GMT 8
To be fair, I wouldn't have reacted very well to your responses, either. -Both- sides of a conversation can be completely, 100% well-intentioned, but come across as something else entirely. That kind of seems like what's happening here. From "I guess not your kind of caring. Sorry for trying" and on, your comments read as somewhat dismissive, or "I've already given up on you." Can you see how they might be read that way, despite your intentions? It sounds like, even if some link were a sort of "miracle cure", your friend wouldn't have looked at it anyway. When reaching out for help, it's easy to be focused on HOW that help comes. If it's not in the desired manner, we can blind ourself to it, no matter the intentions or efficacy of the rejected manner of help. I certainly don't know the whole story, but from that little snippet, that really sounds like what's going on. It doesn't matter WHAT the content of your link was, what they were crying out for was a more personal touch (and not necessarily one with "solutions"). "Leave me alone IF" (with a caveat) does not necessarily translate to a simple "leave me alone." Well, the problem with the internet is that you don't have body language or tone of voice. All you have are words which are going to be interpreted however a person decides to. I said "I guess not your kind of caring. Sorry for trying" because I felt dismissed. He hadn't spoken like that to me the day before, so it came as a shock, and I felt like a dog that was just kicked in the ribs.
His "leave me alone if" just assumed that I didn't care, and that doesn't register in my brain. If I didn't care I wouldn't have bothered saying anything at all. I would have ignored the post. But it really doesn't matter now, because that 'friendship' was closed. I really have no idea how I'm supposed to empathise when I have nothing else to go on besides words on a screen. It was just a bad moment of communication.One common theme among depressed people, is we're very difficult to deal with. Communication is notoriously difficult, even when you DO have body language and tone to help. The only thing left I really feel like adding, is that to reach somebody in a depressive episode, the normal "rules" of conversation don't really apply, at least in the initial phases. While usually there is some give and take, both sides offering their own feelings and perspectives, the conversation typically needs to be almost 100% about them. Their world often is just that, and adding our own feelings or reactions to what they do is way too easily taken as an attack, something to feel guilty about, blame, etc. Even then it sometimes doesn't work! If all somebody is showing you is complete, 100% selflessness, and you can totally see it's pure caring about your own well-being... you can still feel like you just don't deserve it. Sometimes, no matter what we do, they just can't see outside that box. That doesn't mean we should give up, of course.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on May 6, 2015 9:26:51 GMT 8
To be fair, Oberon lashed out in a way that is extremely difficult to deal with. Had you chosen different words to say, would it have made a difference to what they had to say? I doubt it, I've done that to people, and I know that in a state of depression like that, it wouldn't matter, I'd twist your words, any words around. 'It takes people really caring and helping me to help me.' That's twisting it and a cry for help at the same time. It's counter-intuitive to do that, but that's what depression can do, and you can't help yourself when you lash out like that. I see nothing really wrong in general with the conversation, somtimes words just don't matter, even with someone right there in front of me. I can pick apart the way they are standing and tell them they don't understand. The person trying to help is going to lose no matter what. It's because at that point, I don't have a clue as to how to handle it, what to do myself. It becomes a backwards sort of defense mechanism. I don't think you said anything wrong Arin, it just wasn't going to work regardless. That reads like clinical depression to me, but who knows, maybe Oberon had just talked to some asshole a minute before that set them on that course. I can't find blame in any of it, it just doesn't apply. You gave it a shot, they turned it down. You tried to back out and they where upset at that as well most likely. That's the way it reads, they couldn't tell you what they needed to hear, so whatever they were hearing, it was going to be wrong for the moment. When it becomes more than just sadness, it falls into that range of depression that is difficult for anyone to help. To be honest, if Oberon doesn't come out of it on their own, they need professional help, if they can get it. They might not, that's another thing about it, when you lash out, you generally won't seek help either, when you need it the most. That's the standing on the edge and looking into the darkness and you can't look away. The emotional blackhole of depression at it's worst, it takes control as if it was someone else talking for you.
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Post by EchelonHunt on May 6, 2015 21:07:13 GMT 8
A few things I have understood having been on both sides of the coin...
Logic/rational thought cannot be applied to emotions, including emotional states (or lack there of) brought on by depression. What may be common sense to you is something another person cannot fully grasp or understand as they are not in the right place yet.
It is not about you. It is a war they are waging within themselves and when beating themselves to a bloody pulp up does not work, they turn that anger outwards.
While I admire your effort to communicate and attempt to help your (ex)friend, you may as well have kept poking the hornet's nest with a stick.
Patience and knowing when to give a person their space is vital.
As for the "Leave me alone" translating into "Don't leave me alone", I can understand your frustration. One of my ex-girlfriends was like this and she would get increasingly angry at me for taking her words seriously. It's like,... please just speak openly and frankly, don't speak in cryptic messages because despite how I type and how mature I seem, I am dense, horribly inexperienced when it comes to picking up non-verbal hints and certainly not a mind reader.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 9:01:02 GMT 8
One common theme among depressed people, is we're very difficult to deal with. Communication is notoriously difficult, even when you DO have body language and tone to help. The only thing left I really feel like adding, is that to reach somebody in a depressive episode, the normal "rules" of conversation don't really apply, at least in the initial phases. While usually there is some give and take, both sides offering their own feelings and perspectives, the conversation typically needs to be almost 100% about them. Their world often is just that, and adding our own feelings or reactions to what they do is way too easily taken as an attack, something to feel guilty about, blame, etc. Even then it sometimes doesn't work! If all somebody is showing you is complete, 100% selflessness, and you can totally see it's pure caring about your own well-being... you can still feel like you just don't deserve it. Sometimes, no matter what we do, they just can't see outside that box. That doesn't mean we should give up, of course. Thank you for that. I love helping people. I'm far better at it face-to-face, but it does become more difficult to assess someone's state of mind online. I need to learn how to pick up on certain phrases so that I know how to respond to them properly since I can't hear their voice or see their facial expressions.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 9:04:33 GMT 8
As for the "Leave me alone" translating into "Don't leave me alone", I can understand your frustration. One of my ex-girlfriends was like this and she would get increasingly angry at me for taking her words seriously. It's like,... please just speak openly and frankly, don't speak in cryptic messages because despite how I type and how mature I seem, I am dense, horribly inexperienced when it comes to picking up non-verbal hints and certainly not a mind reader. And see, I have Asperger's Syndrome. I've had to work very hard over the years to learn how to read people. I've gotten very good at it in person, but it's still difficult when online. As someone who loves being a therapist I have to get better at that. I feel terrible that Oberon pushed me away so angrily and quickly. I failed at helping them, and I can't have that.
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