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Post by Ayla on Apr 10, 2015 7:49:52 GMT 8
This discussion has polarised folk. We each have our lived experiences of being trans and of dysphoria - from binary through non binary and from mild to severe. We are of different ages, from different communities, have different levels of support, possess different value sets, access to different levels of resources (financial, emotional etc)... and each of us are right.
I think we agree that trans is not a choice - how you deal with this may be, even when you feel that you don't have a lot of options available to you; how you language this; how you experience this; and how you assess the costs (financial, emotional well being; physical risk; career impact; collateral damage etc) will differ by personality and by individual, so I suspect that different folk facing a similar situation may well view their situation, options and costs quite differently.
Projection of our feelings, and of our experiences may not be be good or indeed helpful. Some come herre to learn more, some to seek support, some to vent, some to listen, some to help... I hope that in sharing our emotions and our views we do not harm our relationships. A fellow traveler is precious when we travel a lonely road. As Illuminess asked in a recent thread - Are intense people doomed to hate each other??
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 8:12:43 GMT 8
Honesty has everything to do with being authentic, if being honest is insulting then so be it! Being "liked" has never been important, it's why I am not on Facebook because sometimes I say things that aren't warm and fuzzy, sometimes I'm hated for it and I don't care, because honesty and integrity are infinitely more important than being liked or by being well received by everyone. Be honest and be real, it's an important quality in the real world and we need to share that with others, it needs to be a part of who we are here and we needn't feel that we need to tell someone that they look pretty or beautiful when we know in our hearts that we wouldn't even invite them to a dog fight. It's worse than being insulting to lie to someone about things that are forever going to impact their lives. Fine. Fine. So now you're complaining about the price despite the fact that you're also simultaneously insisting that being trans is a choice and, therefore, you willingly chose to pay said price for no biological or psychological reason. Since you've apparently made yourself miserable of your own free will for no reason, you assume that the rest of us must also make ourselves miserable of our own free will for no reason. This is despite the evidence found in scientific studies that supports the fact that people are born trans. This is also despite the fact that some of us actually don't lose everything. (I haven't lost anything, actually.) And now that you're being called on out it you're whining about how you're being "hated" for being "honest" when what you're really doing is projecting yourself onto everyone else. That's the impression I get. Although, I also get the impression that arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall, so I don't know why I'm bothering. Not really, you're making assumptions so I'm not going to bother discussing it any further with you since you obviously don't get it.
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Post by Edge on Apr 10, 2015 8:15:27 GMT 8
I think we agree that trans is not a choice - how you deal with this may be, even when you feel that you don't have a lot of options available to you; how you language this; how you experience this; and how you assess the costs (financial, emotional well being; physical risk; career impact; collateral damage etc) will differ by personality and by individual, so I suspect that different folk facing a similar situation may well view their situation, options and costs quite differently. That's what I was saying, but apparently, this is "sky poof and twaffle."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 8:21:50 GMT 8
This discussion has polarised folk. We each have our lived experiences of being trans and of dysphoria - from binary through non binary and from mild to severe. We are of different ages, from different communities, have different levels of support, possess different value sets, access to different levels of resources (financial, emotional etc)... and each of us are right. I think we agree that trans is not a choice - how you deal with this may be, even when you feel that you don't have a lot of options available to you; how you language this; how you experience this; and how you assess the costs (financial, emotional well being; physical risk; career impact; collateral damage etc) will differ by personality and by individual, so I suspect that different folk facing a similar situation may well view their situation, options and costs quite differently. Projection of our feelings, and of our experiences may not be be good or indeed helpful. Some come hear to learn more, some to seek support, some to vent, some to listen, some to help... I hope that in sharing our emotions and our views we do not harm our relationships. A fellow traveler is precious when we travel a lonely road. As Illuminess asked in a recent thread - Are intense people doomed to hate each other?? Safe travels Aisla Well look, I'm not saying it is a choice. I don't get where Edge or you come up with the idea that I ever said that, and frankly I'm not miserable with being trans, on the contrary I am quite happy. What I am saying is that there is a huge cost, everyone pays a price for being who they are. It costs me x number of dollars 24/7 365 days a year just to exist, so of course in terms of transitioning there are huge costs which I previously outlined. You folks can take what I've said and skew it any way you want to but tbh it's all very straight forward and something the simplest minds should be able to understand. What I object to is people saying that there is no price or cost involved, because we all know that is bullshit!
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Post by Edge on Apr 10, 2015 8:30:03 GMT 8
Then why were you arguing with us if you agree with us? We think you said that being trans is a choice because we said it isn't and you insulted us because of it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 9:02:04 GMT 8
Then why were you arguing with us if you agree with us? We think you said that being trans is a choice because we said it isn't and you insulted us because of it. I'm not saying that being trans is a choice, but transitioning is and it can cost us everything in the process. Just an honest assessment of what is, there's nothing insulting about the truth and acknowledging what actually happens in some people's lives when they cross that line and decide to transition. My advice has always been to count the cost.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 9:07:22 GMT 8
Then why were you arguing with us if you agree with us? I care about all you folk too much to fucking walk away. Crap emotions run high here in this place. The freaking price is pain, choosing between loved ones and hell itself. Are we willing to accept that we are caught in an inescapable web and must make the best of it? For fifty fucking years I was told it was a choice by idiots that know nothing and that blew my mind and almost my marriage. You people saved both. The stakes are damned high and there will be prices to pay. I am paying one emotionally, watching you fight. It fucking tears me apart. Yet the feelings have to come out, we stuffed enough of them before, till most of us broke. But the damned thread was supposed to be about the willingness to overcome anything to keep it together. To hold loved ones as much as possible without breaking over trans, or splitting apart from dysphoria. And one price to pay is helping each other. So much for me getting off forum. Ya know why? Cause one price we pay is caring about other transpeople, because at the end of the day, that may be the only thing you have left. And they are the only ones that understand what we live with. Pardon me I am in a shitty mood right now.
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Post by Edge on Apr 10, 2015 9:14:15 GMT 8
Then why were you arguing with us if you agree with us? We think you said that being trans is a choice because we said it isn't and you insulted us because of it. I'm not saying that being trans is a choice, but transitioning is and it can cost us everything in the process. Just an honest assessment of what is, there's nothing insulting about the truth and acknowledging what actually happens in some people's lives when they cross that line and decide to transition. My advice has always been to count the cost. You called the fact that being trans isn't a choice "sky poof and twaddle" and said it wasn't reality. So yes, you did say that being trans is a choice. Yes, "sky poof" and "twaddle" are insults.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 9:29:46 GMT 8
Not pissed at you or at Shan edge.
Too much stuff going down and I lost it.
Was trying to stayoff so I wouldn't do exactly what I just did.
Sorry folks.
It's trans. We snap.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 10, 2015 9:32:02 GMT 8
Ativan, That is exactly my point - No, it isn't exactly your point. You have no idea what my point is. I don't think you are even making a point here, other than to turn the topic into one about you, like usual. Maybe that has something to do with your point. But nope, you don't get to use my words, you can't carry the weight they have. You think you have some baggage to haul around? You couldn't even begin to carry mine, so no, my words are not exactly your point. Don't drag them down to your level.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 9:44:03 GMT 8
I'm not saying that being trans is a choice, but transitioning is and it can cost us everything in the process. Just an honest assessment of what is, there's nothing insulting about the truth and acknowledging what actually happens in some people's lives when they cross that line and decide to transition. My advice has always been to count the cost. You called the fact that being trans isn't a choice "sky poof and twaddle" and said it wasn't reality. So yes, you did say that being trans is a choice. Yes, "sky poof" and "twaddle" are insults. You need to get over it Edge, you entered into a conversation where I was addressing an attitude that some people have concerning the price some people have to pay to be real and to transition. The other persons had said there is no cost and I begged to differ on that. If you insist in continuing to not understand then it might be best if you bowed out of the conversation rather than being the one to derail the thread, because no one is going to appreciate that. Everyone knows that I care a lot for people and so the bottom line for me is not to mislead any newbys into entering into transition thinking that the process is going to be without costs in terms of friends and loved ones lost as well as many other potential losses. We have a responsibility to be honest about these things, people do watch us and are looking for answers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 9:45:09 GMT 8
Not pissed at you or at Shan edge. Too much stuff going down and I lost it. Was trying to stayoff so I wouldn't do exactly what I just did. Sorry folks. It's trans. We snap. It's ok honey, we're all family just having a heated discussion like families do.
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Post by Ayla on Apr 10, 2015 9:51:08 GMT 8
Shan
This is family and the emotions can run high but we do like each other
safe travels
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Post by Edge on Apr 10, 2015 9:53:31 GMT 8
Yeah because people totally appreciate being insulted. If you can't take it, don't dish it out, Shan.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Apr 10, 2015 10:56:21 GMT 8
No, it isn't exactly your point. You have no idea what my point is. I don't think you are even making a point here, other than to turn the topic into one about you, like usual. Maybe that has something to do with your point. But nope, you don't get to use my words, you can't carry the weight they have. You think you have some baggage to haul around? You couldn't even begin to carry mine, so no, my words are not exactly your point. Don't drag them down to your level. That Ativan goes beyond the pale. It is possible to have a discussion without abandoning civility. I have never called you names. Nor have I questioned your right to express yourself or your intelligence. Bullying is both unbecoming and demeans both you and this venue. What exactly have you done that cost you time and treasure for anyone? I do way more than you know, and expect neither applause nor commendation. All I hear from you is detailed lists of self serving pronouncements of "truth". Shall I share that vile piece of garbage you sent me the other day? I think not it is beneath me and beneath contempt. As are you. I will for you. I'll go and get it right now and post it right here, or would you like it to be a new topic about you? It's hard enough to have a discussion here without you making it all about you. No you can't have a discussion with me. I think I was pretty clear about that before. Annnd, like I said, you couldn't carry my baggage. You wouldn't know how. What names are being called? The ones you just used, or tried to anyways? You're always going on and on about yourself and what you are doing, it generally isn't very specific and it takes away from topics. You are a bully on topics, someone asks a question, and you give nothing but a twist of words and then make it about you. You just took that persons topic away from them, just so you could talk about yourself. You left them feeling less important than you. Your topic bullying, which is a good way to put it, is unbecoming and demeans the forum. You can always go to your friends at Susan's and play that game there if you want. It's typical of you and your friends there. You don't add to the topic, you turn them around into ones about you. I took out what I sent to you, just to be more to the point on the forum. What I sent to you was for you, but I'll go and put it up, no problem at all. I told you that with some of the contempt I have for you. You want to get into the reasons why here? Because I do. But it serves no real purpose for the forum, much like yourself in my opinion. Oh yeah, I'll run what you think of as vile garbage right up the fricken flag pole and salute it. And then we can get right down to your truths. The real truths. I just might anyways, I see no reason not to, you want to run that vile garbage right up the flag pole and see if it waves in the breeze as well? It's not beneath you, it is you. What you see as self serving pronouncements of my truths, is that I generally have something else to say. Yep, I do talk about me, with the topic in mind, it isn't as self serving as you taking someone elses topic and you making it about you. Have you ever stopped and read back some of the stuff you write about yourself? I'll say this, you do know how to take a nothing and turn it into a something when it comes to yourself. But yah, should I post my PM to you? I don't mind sharing it, I thought you would have though, and I didn't think the forum needed to see it, it is about you, not them. But lets share, OK?
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