Internalized fluidphobia?

[Leena]

Is this what my issue is?

When I'm feeling feminine I want to just be a binary trans woman, it's almost the same as when I was in semi-denial and wanted the trans feelings to go away and just be a guy. I can't just be some static non-binary person either, it is not really like that with me, I rarely flip non-binary. I'm just a trans woman most of the time and a guy some of the time.

I get this way anytime I seriously think of HRT, and I hate it, but thinking of HRT or SRS is one thing that flips me masculine and the transphobic things I thought to stay in semi-denial come back. It's like when I'm flipped feminine I need HRT and SRS and when I'm flipped masculine I need to not be on HRT and not have SRS.

Why must I have only one body LOL?

Has anyone experienced something similar and got past it? Why can't I be happy being genderfluid?

[Trinity]

How masculine do you need to be physically undressed?
Im a bottom so it may be diff.

But for me its so easy to befull transition and live comfortably she, they or he.

Its so easy to hide it or play it up.

One reason i think binary clothing is so dramatically different. And makeup and all that stuff.

So, no, i am bery happy with my transition, wish the boobs were bigger, but its essy to hide and just be.
And yeah, fluidity is immersive for me too. Im just aware of the other facets too while a component rests or is freed.

[Leena]

Apr 11, 2019 23:56:05 GMT 8 Trinity said:

How masculine do you need to be physically undressed?
Im a bottom so it may be diff.

But for me its so easy to befull transition and live comfortably she, they or he.

Its so easy to hide it or play it up.

One reason i think binary clothing is so dramatically different. And makeup and all that stuff.

So, no, i am bery happy with my transition, wish the boobs were bigger, but its essy to hide and just be.
And yeah, fluidity is immersive for me too. Im just aware of the other facets too while a component rests or is freed.

I'm not sure. I am not a bottom,  I hate that terminology TBH. It's an even worse binary than gender. I'm not into anal either way though, so I would need a vagina if I were to be penetrated, and it's not something I think about really.

I'm pretty aromantic anyway, though not asexual. I care more about being attractive to other people more than actually hooking up. I used to be fairly attractive as a long haired guy, perhaps still could be if I presented and acted that way.

That is part of my problem, I haven't found anyone that is willing to even go out with me labeled as non-binary or genderfluid, other than a few that are fine with it as long as I hide it from their family and friends, and that is not something I will ever be willing to do. That I don't have any real examples of what sex or even just romance might be like for a non-binary person doesn't help.

I suppose I could physically be a non-op trans woman and be attractive to some people, I'm not sure why I'm so adverse to that. I know I'd have to be for at least a year to get SRS anyway, probably longer with waiting lists for the top surgeons.

I'm worried that even if I do get SRS the fluidity won't totally go away, and the guy I was trying to be might resurface and be angry at this side of me. He was pretty angry at this side of me when I was in denial and wouldn't go away. It's very rough that parts of myself hate other parts of myself. I hate that side of me bought into toxic masculinity and transphobia, but it's like I can't purge that part of me any more than he could purge this side of me.

[Trinity]

Apr 12, 2019 8:57:17 GMT 8 Leena said:

Apr 11, 2019 23:56:05 GMT 8 Trinity said:

How masculine do you need to be physically undressed?
Im a bottom so it may be diff.

But for me its so easy to befull transition and live comfortably she, they or he.

Its so easy to hide it or play it up.

One reason i think binary clothing is so dramatically different. And makeup and all that stuff.

So, no, i am bery happy with my transition, wish the boobs were bigger, but its essy to hide and just be.
And yeah, fluidity is immersive for me too. Im just aware of the other facets too while a component rests or is freed.

I'm not sure. I am not a bottom,  I hate that terminology TBH. It's an even worse binary than gender. I'm not into anal either way though, so I would need a vagina if I were to be penetrated, and it's not something I think about really.

I'm pretty aromantic anyway, though not asexual. I care more about being attractive to other people more than actually hooking up. I used to be fairly attractive as a long haired guy, perhaps still could be if I presented and acted that way.

That is part of my problem, I haven't found anyone that is willing to even go out with me labeled as non-binary or genderfluid, other than a few that are fine with it as long as I hide it from their family and friends, and that is not something I will ever be willing to do. That I don't have any real examples of what sex or even just romance might be like for a non-binary person doesn't help.

I suppose I could physically be a non-op trans woman and be attractive to some people, I'm not sure why I'm so adverse to that. I know I'd have to be for at least a year to get SRS anyway, probably longer with waiting lists for the top surgeons.

I'm worried that even if I do get SRS the fluidity won't totally go away, and the guy I was trying to be might resurface and be angry at this side of me. He was pretty angry at this side of me when I was in denial and wouldn't go away. It's very rough that parts of myself hate other parts of myself. I hate that side of me bought into toxic masculinity and transphobia, but it's like I can't purge that part of me any more than he could purge this side of me.

Tough scenario.   And i dunno, of it was me id be pretty on the fence too with those circumstances.

Doesnt sound like its very happy for you, the whole trans and nb thing.

I guess i got lucky.

[Ativan Prescribed]

How things are when NB is never the same as it is for the other NB, relationships, romance, sex, it is going to just be whatever you want it to be, it doesn't have to anything if you don't want.
I wonder if the flip thinking about hrt and stuff isn't just a defense mechanism and isn't any kind of phobia at all.
I mean you are pretty knowledgeable about it all, so it isn't like there is some secret that you aren't in on.
But the idea of HRT might be the fear of the all or nothing thing that is pretty common, that once you start there is no turning back, and that's just not true.
Might be a different outlook after a few years of it, but you can always stop and redo things to a certain degree, some body changes are not reversible, but maybe a lot of T would do that, I have no idea and have never heard anyone trying that.
But it's like SRS is a one time deal and that is not over a course of time and it is one way one day and another the next, big huge difference and there is no doing it in degrees at a time.
That would be a huge decision, but unless that is something you are really wanting to do, then why even bother thinking about it, that's the what iffing it to death kind of thing, it isn't a what if, it either is or it isn't.
You could change your mind on it, but then it is still s simple thing, it is or it isn't, you either have to have it or you don't, if it is a don't and you can't afford it, then there it is right there...
So SRS can be a real trigger if you let it, and that might be harder to not let it than it would seem, but it is pretty black and white in comparison to HRT.
That you are using herbals is just the one way you are already using HRT, the natural label doesn't make it some sunshiny thing that is just another cup of tea, it's just a different way to get there and isn't as strong, but depending, it could be stronger than low dose.
So it isn't like there is a decision there to be made, you already have.
But the idea of HRT as low dose or otherwise, getting a script, could be like it being a legit thing, but really, E isn't like an alien extra terrestrial thing found only on certain comets, it's about as natural as what you are doing now.
Just because it is refined and more like pure doesn't make it different.
Kinda like organic vegetables, are there really inorganic vegetables? Raw unrefined sugar is still sugar, it just has a touch of molasses like stuff still in it and when they refine it, that is also what they get besides white sugar,, and brown sugar is just white sugar that they put some molasses back in, less for light broan, more for the regular brown, and honestly, it pretty much doesn't taste any different because when it comes down to it, molasses is just another form of sugar anyways, sugar is sugar.
And E is the same way, no matter where you get it, it is just E, in fact your body makes a shitload of it all day everyday, along with T, the only thing that is different is the ration and that is the only thing that determines the male female thing.
The amount of E a person takes is a lot less than the amount you already have, but it is in changing up that ratio that is what matters, so it's sugar even if you put the molasses back in, and it E even if you get it from a bottle or patch.
I think one of the herbal things is ti stimulate your production of E? I don't know, never looked into it much.
So it isn't the fluidity that is making the changes, it's the ideas, the thinking from the past, the subconscious, your wanting to be fem isn't causing anything and thinking about certain things is a trigger, then it isn't fluidity, it's the triggers.

[Becky]

I wish I could be of help, here. At most, I can be a compassionate listener and send virtual hugs.
*HUG*

I've never really been genderfluid - I'm consistently feminine on the inside, and I lucked out in having pretty weak dysphoria about my outward appearance.

Based on what I've heard from you over the past year, I think being a non-op trans woman is probably your best course of action. Having SRS could get you into trouble if you swing back into a masculine place. I might suggest keeping up with the electrolysis if you can afford it, and thinking about estrogen (perhaps low dose for now).

As for relationships, we are all struggling with those. I sacrificed being fully open and honest to get and keep a partner, but that approach isn't good for everyone. It may not even be good for me, but it's the situation I've got.

It's a tough road for sure. We've got your back.
<3

[Trinity]

T blockers are the killer.

Spiro.

And as far as reversing e, boobs....

But reversing spiro is another story.

I forget, you on finesteride now?

Thats another equation shifter.

I personally have some questions about gcs.  Its a big deal.

So im on the fence.  If wife passed, maybe.

I hope she doesnt though.
Tough choices

[Ativan Prescribed]

Yah, T blockers are the things that really make it a tough thing to take back once it gets too far, but those are T blockers and E isn't the same thing, but the blockers change the ratio, but there is no good reason to be taking them other than what they are really for, blocking is a side effect from the original use, although as a side effect they are used now for some of those, but they are not healthy drugs to be taking, they are archaic in that they are old ones and times and chemistry has gone on to make them basically obsolete.
The old guard might like to prescribe them, but that's because they know how they will work and don't know if anything better and newer is available, the older the doc, the less likely they are keeping up on things, but then they know a lot that the younger ones haven't gotten to yet.
But spiro and finasteride should be taken off the market, they do more harm than good and when used off label, they are doing pretty much just harm, the benefits are nothing in comparison and besides, there are better ways of doing a lot of things.
I'm not up totally on what is exactly what, but I have read about things that just make them both total negatives to me, the specifics I don't remember, mostly because I would never use either of those, I wouldn't do the blocker thing even if safe.
The reason is that once you go that way, then you do have to keep taking them or it goes back to just E, so it should be just E to start.
The thing that happens is that when you first start to take E, your body thinks it has too much and lowers it's production, the T satays the same.
Use a T blocker and your body thinks it isn't making enough and makes more, so that entire thing is just an exercise in defeat, you block it so you make more, but in the very early stages of full on E doses, blockers can bring that ratio to a grinding halt and change it to the one you want, but then once you change the E or the blockers, you have to fight to maintain that, so the blockers usually stay, the E stays the same and your body is all whacked out on what it is supposed to be doing.
Jut taking E in a higher dose will change the ratio, you don't need to lose T, in fact it isn't healthy to lose it anyways.
As your body makes less because of the dose you give it, it takes a while for it to get used to the idea that the ratio is what it is about, and if it see a higher ratio and it wants to finally stay there, then you can back off,, because more isn't going to change it more and if it does, that change isn't going to do much of anything, so once you get it all going and you are where you need to be, then backing down gives your body the chance to make it like it was meant to be.
But the blocker thing just whacks it all out of shape, you're dealing with the T levels and changing those at the same time just doesn't sound reasonable, does it.
Just leaving that alone and working the E levels to get a ratio that works for you and then letting your body make its own E to stay there or closer is the end game of it, there isn't any sense in taking to much E, at a point a lot more does very little and it just messes with body chen=mistry that is probably better off not being messed with, so a lot doesn't get you much more, at that point doubling it doesn't even come close to doubling the reason for taking it, you can only just so much of that female ratio kinda thing, there isn't a higher ratio in real life, more just can't make you more female than you have gotten to if you have used it at full strength, the blockers though will raise holy hell on your body and your mind, they indeed do that.
LOL, taking twice the amount needed of E to be a female isn't going to make you two times a female, and besides, then you have to double up on all that female stuff, whatever that could be.
I think maybe that the republican men who are really into the fox news woman are kinda like thinking that judge jeanine is like twice the woman because she wears three times the makeup and can purse her lips like way more than a normal person can, so again like three times the woman because? Maybe they do take E on the side in huge qualities so that they can be the wonder woman of a false news network on the wrong side of history, and so they might as well go for the gusto with that three times philosophy to have any fans at all.

[Leena]

Apr 12, 2019 10:33:16 GMT 8 Ativan Prescribed said:

How things are when NB is never the same as it is for the other NB, relationships, romance, sex, it is going to just be whatever you want it to be, it doesn't have to anything if you don't want.
I wonder if the flip thinking about hrt and stuff isn't just a defense mechanism and isn't any kind of phobia at all.
I mean you are pretty knowledgeable about it all, so it isn't like there is some secret that you aren't in on.
But the idea of HRT might be the fear of the all or nothing thing that is pretty common, that once you start there is no turning back, and that's just not true.
Might be a different outlook after a few years of it, but you can always stop and redo things to a certain degree, some body changes are not reversible, but maybe a lot of T would do that, I have no idea and have never heard anyone trying that.
But it's like SRS is a one time deal and that is not over a course of time and it is one way one day and another the next, big huge difference and there is no doing it in degrees at a time.
That would be a huge decision, but unless that is something you are really wanting to do, then why even bother thinking about it, that's the what iffing it to death kind of thing, it isn't a what if, it either is or it isn't.

I guess part of it is I've been thinking about SRS almost every day since I first heard about it when I was 8 years old. It wasn't until much, much later that I found out about HRT. I maybe still have that idea that you need SRS to be trans, which some binary trans people still perpetuate. I probably should think about it less, it for sure isn't happening for me anytime soon. Maybe that I somewhat see being on HRT as a step towards that doesn't help.

You could change your mind on it, but then it is still s simple thing, it is or it isn't, you either have to have it or you don't, if it is a don't and you can't afford it, then there it is right there...
So SRS can be a real trigger if you let it, and that might be harder to not let it than it would seem, but it is pretty black and white in comparison to HRT.
That you are using herbals is just the one way you are already using HRT, the natural label doesn't make it some sunshiny thing that is just another cup of tea, it's just a different way to get there and isn't as strong, but depending, it could be stronger than low dose.
So it isn't like there is a decision there to be made, you already have.
But the idea of HRT as low dose or otherwise, getting a script, could be like it being a legit thing, but really, E isn't like an alien extra terrestrial thing found only on certain comets, it's about as natural as what you are doing now.

Yeah, I mean I'm taking the herbals because they claim to have similar effects and similar risks as low dose HRT, with the added risk of being an almost completely unregulated industry and no studies on long term use. I do have concerns about continuing them because of that, but I'm not quitting them unless it's to start on HRT.

I think one of the herbal things is ti stimulate your production of E? I don't know, never looked into it much.
So it isn't the fluidity that is making the changes, it's the ideas, the thinking from the past, the subconscious, your wanting to be fem isn't causing anything and thinking about certain things is a trigger, then it isn't fluidity, it's the triggers.

It's possible for T to change to E through aromatization, some things can increase that.

Yeah, the thinking from the past does trigger things. I still dream about my old friends from high school and college sometimes. Thinking about being back there and hanging out with them takes me back to how I felt in that time period. So do other things, I lived as a guy for decades, it's not like I can forget that happened. I don't really understand how some late transitioning binary trans people do that.

I really do want to look like a trans woman when I'm undressed. I also desperately want to keep the hair on my head, I considered finesteride, but what I'm doing with the herbals + minoxidil seems to be working fairly well for now.

I can't have two bodies or shapeshift in reality, so I do have to make binary decisions on my body. Other things like clothes are easy to be more fluid about. I don't think I'll ever be cis passing, but then that means I can probably still pass as a guy. Although it would be great if I could pass as either binary, I don't think that's possible with this body. Being a non-passing trans woman that sometimes dresses like a long haired guy is where I'm heading in a physical sense.

[Trinity]

My greatest dream and my worst nightmare because it would kill me.

[Trinity]

Progesterone, which is typically added 1 or 2 or even more years after starting high E, is a powerful help for the hair, dht block.

[Trinity]

Its added late to take you past tanner 3. Worked for me

[Ativan Prescribed]

I think one of the things that a erson does is to look in a mirror to much and too hard.
It is entirely possible to see the reflection in a way that is different from what nearly everyone else would see.
It's easy to find fault with just that alone, and think of the other things that are overblown by a trigger response.
On the other hand, ignoring your reflection is also just as possible, of course you see yourself, but if you are looking at just a certain thing, then the focus id there and not the overall reflection.
Store front windows are the ones that catch people off guard, but even then, if you just forget about looking at yourself and seeing everything else in the reflection, you are out of focus and the focus is somewhere else.
I don't see myself hardly at all, the window reflections I'm just not there 99% of the time.
Although I am considered to be well above average in looks for a guy, seeing me is a killer, it just drags the moment down.
The recovery is quick enough, seconds usually, because I just don't focus on my reflection, I do to shave, but I just see the whiskers and the razor, the rest is again out of focus.
It's how I manage to be able to not be so self conscious of my looks that are totally guy, I'd so much rather look feminine, but that ain't happening, there isn't a way without extensive surgery and I'm not going to do that, or SRS.
The idea that it is possible just isn't there and to that degree, I don't have a need to see myself, it is so not me that when I leave here and turn the security cams on and come back and take a quick look, I don't recognoize me as being me.
I don't see me in picks, and I have a bunch from over the years, timers on my cameras, I put myself in various places in one scene by leaving the camers on a tripod and then taking the same pick with me in a different place.
I don't see the me in those as being the real me because in my head I'm so much different even though still overly guy, I have ignored my looks for so many years that I don't even care how I look, other than groomed nice when I go out.
I can look at my reflection, but I have a very hard time taking it all in and I'm a couple feet from the mirror, hard to miss a big ol head there, but I can't focus on more than the few things I want to see, if I want to see all of me, then I have to do it in places at a time.
I think about this when I hear people talking about their problems with how they look and how they so much want to change that, but I have always known that I wasn't going to change into a girl at puberty even though I wished and hoped.
It was the next years that the damage from T was extensive, the difference is a lot, I could easily pas with minimal makeup at fifteen, and there isn't a way that was going to happen less than ten years ;later.
So it was a huge problem, but I just ignored how I look almost always since twenty years old, it just changed the way I see myself in a reflection and even in pics, I have to stop and think if that is really me or not.
So the overwhelming dysphoria isn't there in the regard, clothes are a different thing, but in private, I can wear what I want and I do.
Making doubly sure to not stop and stare at myself in a mirror, my full length one tilts and I always have it so I can't see my head, it's the little things that keep dysphoria at a point where it really isn't even there almost always.

[Ativan Prescribed]

None of that is at all odd or even hard to do, it isn't any different than passing by the crap in your yard that the grass has grown up and around, you ignore it because you don't want to pick it up when you mow.
Lots of things are like that, in fact it is the way we see most everything, we focus where it is important, where we need to.
But we also selectively ignore an equal or greater number of things, My dirty shower that I just cleaned, I had no idea it was as bad as it was until I looked at it the other day, it's a different color now...
The things we don't like to see and have right there day after day is easily ignored mostly, we see it but it doesn't really register as a conscious thing, semi maybe, we do that so we don't have a bad day over it.
We do tend to look at the world this way and if your outlook is good, you will ignore the crap there is to see, if your general mood is stuck in pissy and pissed off, then perhaps you focus on the crap that you can't do anything about.
I think some of that is even one of the effects of some mental disorders, depression might be a continuing one because we focus on the wrong things and can't stop, after effect of the root cause, but it can be a continuation of a sort.
I think of the visual clues we get that make us squeamish and that causes dysphoria to rise up and then we focus on that, because it is a thing we should be able to do something about.
My non reflection is one way that I deal with that.

[Leena]

Looking in the mirror when I am wearing clothes doesn't bother me much now. It did before I started hair restoration and electrolysis. I can even be in some men's clothes like T shirts and men's skinny jeans. I just look mostly like I did when I was in my early teens and had long hair and less facial hair, though I'm starting to see the woman now.

I do have slight concerns if my face ends up not looking much different and I do get large breasts, but I'm not going to let that stop me. I don't necessarily have to change my presentation to more feminine than I'm doing now right away. I don't really want to until after I get back to doing electrolysis. I might not be able to do that for a while though. I had been planning on finishing electrolysis before starting HRT, but it is taking a lot longer than I was quoted when I started.