Binary Transman Vs NB Rant - Thoughts? (TW)

[EchelonHunt]

And a comment someone made on his post, to which he replied...



I'm trying to collect my thoughts on all this. All I can say are this:

Being nonbinary (or genderfluid for that matter) is not a choice.

I don't like it when people parade nonbinary as a fashion statement because it minimises the struggles nonbinary people go through, especially when nb people have dysphoria. It makes nonbinary seem more like a gender nonconforming thing, like it's just clothes, different hairstyle and rebelling against gender norms and stereotypes.

Nonbinary people ARE more marginalised than binary transpeople, at this current stage of political climate - more than ever so before. Especially nonbinary people who choose to medically transiiton (like I am, going all the way to getting bottom surgery), they are a minority within a minority of the nonbinary community.

I also like that he claims there are spaces for nonbinary folks when they are literally few and far inbetween, yet there are HUNDREDS of FTM groups on FB. He complains about the fact many FTM groups are welcoming nonbinary folks (gee, why is being inclusive of diversity a BAD thing?) and thus, he's not getting the "support" he needs.

To put the nonbinary group and FTM group in perspective, I used to be a part of two nonbinary groups, one of them has become dead and the other one is my local city NB group - while they ARE active, I no longer frequent their IRL meet-ups because they began to combine transmen, transwomen and nb into one entire social event instead of seperate support groups... and they wondered why the nb group suddenly got quiet with less visitors once they returned to being support groups. I am a part of 10 FTM groups with only 2-3 of those groups that I know of who are inclusive of nonbinary folks. 

The local FTM group I used to be a part of, I ended up leaving because there were so many toxic transmen who kept complaining about nonbinary people being in the group (much like this guy above), claiming it's for transMEN, it got tiring to see my existence being criticised over and over. Plus, a lot of transmen were straight and misogynistic in that group. I found it no surprise that my NB friend went to the local FTM group and found many of them were just talking about girls titties the whole time. 

One of the reasons I left the local NB meet-ups was because a NB moderator had the fuckin AUDACITY after I discussed my plans for phalloplasty due to my crippling dysphoria, telling other nb members that phalloplasty doesn't deliver good results. I COULD NOT BELIEVE MY FUCKING EARS.

They CLEARLY had not done the extensive research and it made me so fucking mad that a NB moderator would spread false information that is continuing to perputuate the myths that surround phalloplasty today.

Ok, sorry I went off on a tangent there.

What are your thoughts of this transman's rant? Do you agree/disagree with it? Why?

[Maka]

Seems like a bear who behaves as if he found his den, squeezed inside it, found it comfortable, and now defends it from the turmoil caused by others not like him, i.e. not bears (in his own understanding of what a bear should be). There's no sense to talk about non-bear things whatsoever with him.
This is what I feel in his post.
Well, people have a freedom to be selves, ok, he chooses being 'that one' himself, fine for him. If there are a lot of others like this one in the cave, they found their place and are seemingly comfortable with it, so no sense to disturb them, they doesn't want to understand anything extra that does not matching their model of a 'bear' world.
Something like this.

[Leena]

These are similar to the arguments cisgender transphobes make.

Being genderfluid is not easier than being binary trans. It means not being able to physically transition because it risks dysphoria from the other way when you flip. Genderfluid flips are not choices, and are quite stressful, for me at least. They also happen at inconvenient times. I often have wished I could be binary trans because at least there's a clear path, and even though flipped feminine over 90% of the time, and can't move forward with transition because of that less than 10% time I am flipped masculine and want to be physically as masculine as possible when I do.

Being binary trans isn't easy either though, I can get that he is struggling with the idea that people think he is non-binary or being a binary trans man is not the same as being a cis man. For some binary trans people, it is very hard that cis people see them as different, where as non-binary people just are going to be seen as different from cis people, unless they are totally closeted.

I can't think of any situation exclusive spaces are a good thing. It perhaps feels good to be in the position to make others feel bad for being different. To be the bully rather than the bullied, that is how a lot of people are, I might have been like that for a time too, but I graduated from middle school, some seem stuck there for life...

[Becky]

The "rant" above had the unfortunate effect of putting my brain right back to the dark place it was a year or so ago. It reads almost like something a pentecostal preacher would say. Are non-binary folks the reason God sends hurricanes to destroy us, as well? I was waiting for that sentence.

Before I knew about a non-binary identity, I really did think I only had two choices. One was to fully transition to a woman and the other was to stay depressed and in the closet, heading toward some form of self harm. I didn't want bottom surgery, and I didn't want to experiment with HRT. I felt like I had no good options.

Discovering that non-binary was a thing literally saved my life. The fact that this person thinks it's a fad, or some sort of decision I can make each day, feels like an attack. Are we really that threatening to their identity? Fully cisgender transfolk go through a full transition, and then strive to fit into the binary world that is already established. Non-binary folk try to express an identity completely outside the binary norms, and get attacked for it. It's bad enough to get attacked by the mainstream community - an attack from the trans community feels like a stab in the back.

It's almost as if this gentleman is saying, "I'll proudly fly a rainbow flag at my next Pride Festival, but I'll be damned if my flag will have purple in it. Everyone else is welcome, but forget N.B. people!"

Jacey, I have two things left to say.

First, to Jacey the moderator of our forum: thank you for not acting as a hostile "gatekeeper" who feels a need to come up with an agenda and kick out anyone who colors outside the lines.

Second, to Jacey my friend: I would advise you to get the heck away from that other forum. It sounds angry and toxic, and to me it sounds like the moderator needs to have counseling for some issues that are causing internal rage.

<3

[Trinity]

Not all pentacostals are that way. I am pentacostal.

But off the wall folk, yes...

I didn't read it. The TW is enough, the old forest remains ashes, dead, nothing is left. Just some old friends that don't even say anything anymore, and a bunch of mods trying to figure it all out and say something when visitors come in looking for answers. And the answers they get, don't work, or won't work.

This place seems to me to be the last refuge of the nonbinary. The safety depository of knowledge, and the one place to be real.

[Becky]

Oct 18, 2018 3:58:54 GMT 8 Trinity said:

Not all pentacostals are that way. I am pentacostal.

But off the wall folk, yes...

I didn't read it. The TW is enough, the old forest remains ashes, dead, nothing is left. Just some old friends that don't even say anything anymore, and a bunch of mods trying to figure it all out and say something when visitors come in looking for answers. And the answers they get, don't work, or won't work.

This place seems to me to be the last refuge of the nonbinary. The safety depository of knowledge, and the one place to be real.

Trinity, I apologize.  I should have looked for a more appropriate word.

We have a lot of baptist and pentecostal churches here in Kentucky that heap judgement and persecution on the LGBTQ community.  That being said, I feel like any judgmental Christian is a bad Christian.  I should have just said "A bad preacher" and left it at that.

I hope you can forgive me - it was a poor choice of words from a P.O.'d person.
<3

[Trinity]

Oct 18, 2018 4:15:17 GMT 8 Becky said:

Oct 18, 2018 3:58:54 GMT 8 Trinity said:

Not all pentacostals are that way. I am pentacostal.

But off the wall folk, yes...

I didn't read it. The TW is enough, the old forest remains ashes, dead, nothing is left. Just some old friends that don't even say anything anymore, and a bunch of mods trying to figure it all out and say something when visitors come in looking for answers. And the answers they get, don't work, or won't work.

This place seems to me to be the last refuge of the nonbinary. The safety depository of knowledge, and the one place to be real.

Trinity, I apologize.  I should have looked for a more appropriate word.

We have a lot of baptist and pentecostal churches here in Kentucky that heap judgement and persecution on the LGBTQ community.  That being said, I feel like any judgmental Christian is a bad Christian.  I should have just said "A bad preacher" and left it at that.

I hope you can forgive me - it was a poor choice of words from a P.O.'d person.
<3

No worries there.

Triggers are too deep to even think about this

[Ativan Prescribed]

Was that person Susan trying to promote FTM or even start another forum and advertise it as the world's second largest?
The attitude towards NB from most all binary isn't very good, trans or not, if they don't admit to being a little nb or more, they go through the same song and dance.
And the spectrum thing, don't use it to explain, it just adds fuel to their fire.
They see it as being special because they fail at trying to understand, they want to be the ones heard, trans and cis, nb is just too weird for the weird.
But it really does bring back the feeling of Susan's and the shit pullers they are there, not the people in general, but the staff in general.
And to make a big note here, this forum is here because of the backstabbing we received for just being ourselves.
They crapped all over us at any chance they had and they did in cruel ways, and tried to twist our words into something that was cruel to them, and it never was unless it was me spouting off to them.
The forest started in that forum, an offhand remark that stuck and was used for the nb there as a way to make fun off us, we took it and ran, designed that forest into one that surrounded there cities of cis.
Lots to explain about all of that, but the deciding thing was the what kind of creature are you in the forest, and people had lots to say and we understood it.
It became apparent that they just couldn't figure out what we were saying, so once again they made it about them, and tried to make the claim that we were conspiring against them, which is laughable.
I think I hold some kind of record there for getting banned for things I had to say to them at times, and for the philosophy about nb that they then turned around into a thing about them again.
But there it is people, the forum that bills itself as the world's largest (it isn't) and they chased us out of there while seriously failing to even try to understand the things we had to say.
It was at that forum where some of the talk about who we are was put into their spectrum, the one they go through as they transition, but that spectrum was never ours, but it was handy to use at times.
I spent a lot of time and did get banned for arguing that what they saw as us stuck in their spectrum was wrong, and placed us in a different light. Banned again...
It was the beginning of the idea that this so called spectrum just wasn't real as far as we are concerned, and the discussions went on and on about it, it started to gel into a much better concept of us.
There were just about anything we had to say or do that they clamped down on as a threat to them, when it wasn't about them, and that's the big thing, it was about us, not them, but they twisted it into a them thing.
This is the response we get most of the time, cis and binary trans (not all of them, but enough of them) fall back on the spectrum thing and then decide we are just slippery and can't be trusted because nobody knows were we are on the so called spectrum, it is their weapon they use against us, there are others, and the person who wrote that above was using them, colonising space, lololololol hahahahaha, what a dipstick.
Yes we are on a path to take over the world, we colonise and take your space away, the jerk, his entire thing is about taking away our space except for what he thinks can be ours, if it is ok with him.
This is the same old song and dance they have always used and allowing them to make arguments that don't have a basis in reality is the uphill fight for us.
This is why I won't use the spectrum idea, it is their biggest thing to use against us, and besides, after years of talking, the where we are has become not in the matrix, we are anywhere but there.
But that we have to wade through the unrealistic construct all the time, we need to be aware of it and to not get sucked into it.
If anyone wants to come up with a better way of identifying us, go right ahead, it's always going to be an ongoing process, and needs to be so that what we are and who we are isn't used against us and used to force us out of the space we occupy, if they claim it, then so what, they claim a bit for themselves, and they really do need to grow up and deal with it, we are not who they claim we are, we are who we say we are.
So really, we have been there and done that and it is why we are here, and why it is guarded, it's our space and we don't need to be told we can't have this space.
It's ours and it is here because we had to deal with the world's largest assholes who's treatment towards us led to leaving there and starting over here, and even then it wasn't good enough, Susan's fucked with us for months and months, doing what they could to shut the forum down, because we now had our space, away and not connected with them.
They banned people from there if they became members here, this is how petty they are, and you know what? The section we owned there is dead, it's still open, but go there and talk and the mods will be right there making sure their world is still there, because they can't figure us out.
This figuring us out is a threat to them, simply because they don't understand, so if we explain it, we have to be careful in how we do that, and it's up to each person, but go off in the wrong way and it'll come back and bite your ass.
As far as places where nb can go and have some space, I don't know of anywhere myself and don't care, as far as I'm concerned, this is the best (world's largest?) nb forum out there, and there are no moderators, can you get that, we understand and do have a feeling of protection for everyone here, and yes there have been a few times where things got heated and people left, but it was in the best interest.
Don't underestimate the years of experience and the way that evolved for us, the fact that we can talk and not have to be moderated is to me the proof that this forum works better than any other one you might find.
It is what it is, not too many people, not enough people, and look at the member list, most are signed on and never come back, but there is always the core and it is always going to here.
We don't need the worlds whatever, doesn't matter and if people are looking, we come up right away on a google search, that we don't have the stuff right out front for people, the threads they want, the quick answers that aren't there, just leaves us as we are and I don't see anyone doing it any better, so that load of crap about us is just that, a big load with all the standard pieces of crap that are not based in reality.
Just where the forum is at any given moment is entirely up to the members and guests, there is no code that needs to be followed, not fricken plan to go from nb to nb, it's just nb people getting together.
And the little we can offer is years of experience and a ton of conversations over the years.

[Yuki]

There is just so much bullshit in what that person said that I Don't even know where to start. But in short, no I don't agree with anything he said. We're like the bisexuals of the trans community... we get shit from either side and get told to just "choose one."

Nah, choosing one is not who I am and being forced to do that is boring anyway. That's all I have to say about that.

And I never understood what it matters to anyone else what someone wants to do with their body.. what surgeries they want to have, etc. Why does everyone want everyone to be exactly the same? I'd rather me be me, and you be you, and everyone else be whoever they are. And I trust that, if someone wants a particular surgery, they've already done the research and know what they're doing. It's their business. Or if they don't want it, they have a reason why. Again, none of my concern. That's a very personal choice for them.

This is one of the reasons I stayed in denial, I guess, of being nonbinary for a few years even after I learned about it. It's not that I didn't think it was valid. But I didn't want to add another layer of fighting for yet another identity, so I ignored it for as long as I could. But here I am, because I couldn't ignore it anymore.

Hell no it wasn't a choice. I tried to NOT be nonbinary. lol.

[Trinity]

Back in the day, i was in the center of the burn. And i created that thread and it became a big success.

But there were aggressive binaries and they baited Ativan and at that time Ativan had more easily triggered rage. And I have my own...

There was a mod, i would speak my truth, she said I was delusional, that I needed to get to a psyche ward.

I still have friends in there, got banned once for a creatures post. Stayed though, my heart goes out to the ones who reach out, but its gone for me, just flat.

And those nbs left mourn.

I could be banned for this post here.

But its the sad commentary of trans. It seemed to have improved, then you see this sort of thing.

Susans they left the nbs alone, they leave me alone, but with nearly everyone gone, the mods try to answer the nb questions.

At its root of the Great Disaster was the belief that Everyone Is Binary Trans and if you are not you are in Denial of the Inevitable Transition.

And we talked about it.  And refuted that but they didnt believe it.

And we left.  The bans started and we got mad.  Jayce started this place hoping we would come, and the entire section left.

The knowledge losses were huge, yes we retain the core of it here, but great minds were lost, folk that didnt come or moved on or vanished.. Some to death, most to disgust over the fighting. And that could get viscious.

This forum sheilded me from it. There wss concern, my transition was a terror, Ativan and Aisla and Patty daily keeping me off the edge. Folk were scared id crack.

But not from living in denial of being a binary transsexual. In fact, the binary was tearing me apart.

Then came the breakthroughs, in the creatures thread, irl.

I was a prolific threadstarter, more came, it became more than gender, it became life and music and how was your day...

It became living nonbinary.

It changed, there were fights, usually over different stuff.

Moderators or not we guard and protect this space. I hate it when shit hoes down but it can.

We have been lucky lately.

But nbs can go to the binary too. Its about what is your truth. Thats personal stuff.

Heres the thing. Those of us that have been around know this stuff is life or death to get it right.

So when the bears attack, beware the wolves and wild fairies.

Hate is poison. And the idea that becoming binary is inevitable can and does kill.

[Trinity]

So, to get away from the rant and all that went wrong and get into more history information....possibly hijacking the thread

Ativan is here the longest, the longest from the old forest.

It was Nero that spoke of the Unicorn Forest, I believe. Nero died just before the forest burned.

But from my understanding, Nero started calling us the Unicorns, and the forest was the description of the paths through it.

Ativan and I were talking one day, they remember it well, my memory has problems most likely due to the trauma of transition and a hormone OD, but that discussion of the forest birthed the thread, and we were able to express the inexpressible. And a lot of that was feelings.

It was far from a game or play acting, it was the core of who we were.

In the beginning I talked of the core, that was my contribution, stripping down all the noise and finding the deep part of ourselves and the gender we are, the core that watches and observes and knows the truth. And is wired into the spirit, the soul, God. And I likened it to a diamond, because it is raw, then shaped in pain, harder than nails, reflecting the light, and different depending on the angles you looked at it.

The diamond heart of trans.

We talked of the eyes being the windows into ourselves, and when dysphoria was at its worse, looking into our eyes and seeing the true us, and revering it, nurturing what is in those eyes.

My eyes were always transfeminine, from day 1. I hated them.

The binary line split me, it was as if my gender was fighting with itself for control. And that can happen with this spectrum thing. The idea that it cannot be simultaneous.

So the symphony concept evolved. And that has been the current theme for me now, because it works. For me.

Once again using alegory to express the inexpressible.

But the old core people were strong, back in the day. I think though that we have taken the raw and refined it, and honed it into a fine sword.

[Ativan Prescribed]

Yep, the forest stuff went from a curious thing about us from Nero, but I think they told me once that it had a beginning from someone else, so who knows, Nero is the one for me.
It was the saddest thing ever from the old forum when Nero died, they had an effect on everyone no matter who you are.
But instead of the forest getting more complicated, I started up with the idea of aspects of people that define them, they have no gender, they are just the things that we are.
I see them as a constant flow towards us and away, we pick the ones we want as they are coming our way, we can hold on to them forever, but mostly they get used and chucked into the stream going away.
The idea is that we are more or less static and the universe moves around us, towards us and going away, even time itself can be seen in the same way.
We aren't moving through time, it is moving past us, we pick the things we want and toss what we don't of our reality, and it's just aspects as well.
Deep stuff but I don't think it is that hard to see it, I know it sounds strange, but the concept works really good once you dive into it and ask the questions and see the answers coming at you, use them and then toss them.
But these strange ways we have of talking about us are just the way it evolved for us to be able to express ourselves as we are and not being dependent on the binary words that pretty much have a lot of gender attached to them.
This is the point, once you start to drop the gendering of things, just stop calling and thinking in the binary terms that everything revolves around gender, it becomes a lot easier to see your true core.
It isn't that hard and it doesn't mean you have to stop talking in that binary gender way, we do live with everyone else, apparently taking their space away.
Which reminds me, I actually did use someones space for a while, it was pretty odd and I was afraid of getting stuck in their space, the physical space they use, like where they are standing kind of space.
I wasn't paying attention and just bumped right into that space and had to be in it while they were using it, after all it is their space, but I managed to slip out of it and I don't think they realized I did that.
So yah, damn, I'm guilty of using their space, occupying it... But at least I Let them have their space back, they need it to be who they are and believe me, this person has some very odd things rattling in their head...
Being totally immersed in binary gender of virtually everything they thought and looked at, the sounds they heard, male and female, almost all of it is gendered and it just sucks up so much of their thinking.
So the real thoughts had to rattle around in there trying to connect and decide how to approach the gendered world in front of them, trust me, it was an unnerving thing to have happen and I'll pay more attention so I don't occupy their space again.

[Von]

What a toxic environment. I'm very lucky I was directed to a FB group that puts a lot of emphasis on nonbinary inclusion; to the point of banning gender-charged language like "guys" "dudes" "bros" "men" when speaking to not an individual who has given express permission on what they like to be called. It's top surgery only group, otherwise I'd friend you and invite you. I don't know of any that are NB and phallo friendly, mostly because it's not an interest of mine.

I personally have gone through some reflection, that it might be a simpler process and easier to explain to others, if I were simply a Trans Man. But I mulled it over for a while, and couldn't bear the thought of denying my feminine flips when they come around (as they have now). Most people I came out to had no idea what nonbinary was. One couple, before I came out, outright mocked nonbinary people as "special snowflakes" or whatever. It took me tearfully storming off for them to change their tune.

It's hard to get respect and recognition when people think you're looking for attention, or feel you're taking up their space in the Marginilized Peoples mobile.

I'm lucky not to have experienced even half of what you all have through your lives. I don't think I could bear it.

Hearing this story of Susan's (which definitely came up as an option when my therapist was looking for forums for me, ew) makes me glad I wasn't around for that.

[Ativan Prescribed]

They didn't like my forest idea in that they lived in two cities, male and female, with a connecting highway (they actually liked that part).
It was when I added the rest area along the highway that they started to get sketchy about it.
As I added in the ideas of paths to take, it got to them even more, so I added in places to meet up at, lakes and such.
People started to make their own special places in the forest, and the paths slowly became the paths we are on in real life.
That I was in the process of writing things, a big thing, I took a quote from Hunter S. Thompson —
'The Edge...There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over...
It became a reference that I used and became used more and more, but has sorta died out now, although Trinity and I use it a lot still.
We talk about that edge and here it is the edge where you are half over it and half hanging on still.
The quote in context is Hunter talking about riding a motorcycle down a winding narrow mountain road in deep fog, and thinking about it in terms of life.
There is more to it, but that's the gist of it for here, and there have been more than a few people on the edge and had to be helped back onto the path.
I tend to stay on the edge a lot of the time, but that is slowing down, but not normal, as I get older in retirement.
But all of that was started at Susans, for those of us who came from their and became a part of this forum in the early stages of it, what we had learned there we carried over to here.
I know a lot of times some of the references and just plain advice seem far fetched and hard to even imagine, it was for us as well, but we had lived that for years at the old forum.
The forest grew to encompass the cities that the binary lived in and defended from us wild creatures who lived in it, they certainly didn't like that.
It just referred to the fact that because it is so hard to pin down, the numbers of NB could be small, but probably a lot bigger than other trans people, I think it is still.
The little battles started to become a war, I had more than a few bans over the time I was there, and I was of course blamed for what they thought, which wasn't at all what it was to us.
We defined our space and they hadn't, they liked the two cities but then they became confined to them, to scared to venture into the forest.
In the end, they took any and all slights and threatened bans on a regular basis, and picked away at the smallest things.
One of our members here was having problems with dose of E, to much was what it sounded like, and they jumped all over that, it wasn't following the plan and dammit, NB's.
Susan jumped in and made some cruel remarks that went beyond the ban code of conduct (yes they have a whole bunch of do's and don'ts, stick up their ass things)
So it got as heated as it can get and with the threat of bans, I just had at it with all of them, mods and Susan, (I was in contact with one of the staff who then dumped on me)
I was allowed a little more leeway than others at times and this was one, Susan was on the warpath to shut me down without a ban, just get the better of me.
I balsted that crap out of the water and then just said since I know a ban is coming because they can't face the truth, I quit.
I didn't know at first what happened, but the things I talked about, the bridges from us to them were burned and then they just went ahead and burned the forest, choking off the NB section there.
Others soon followed, some got banned, I have no idea if mine was ever lifted, I doubt it, but I still have two accounts there and it's only the one that has the ban.
I was told to come here and take a look, the others from Susans were here and I joined, I was in the front on a lot of people who came and joined, and for some it became a place to rant on Susan and her forum.
It became a war for them, how dare we just up and start a forum and as they saw it, steal away members from them.
No amount of explaining that we didn't steal anyone, didn't invite most of them, maybe all of the new people who came from there, but they went so far as to insert trouble makers into the list of members.
So even leaving and starting a new forum wasn't the end of the story, all kinds of stuff went down, and it got bad, I found out a lot about Susan and people volunteered information.
It wasn't long before I had a google pic from google maps of Susan's house and the car that was bought for her so a member could be on the staff there.
But the biggest thing we found out, was that Susan hadn't transitioned at all, spent anytime away from home as her male self, a public figure there.
The thing that made it all so incredible was that she implied that she had followed her plan and it worked and so it became the plan there, it had different scenarios, but it was all the same thing.
If you didn't follow the planand become invisible, stealth in the community, you weren't a true transsexual, or as they claimed, a transgender person at all, yep, they tried to steal transgender as theirs, lol.
It was messy, there were a lot of things that just went beyond the pale, most of the information was kept quiet, but the people who had it eventually spoke up on Reddit and Facebook, there were and might still be accounts about the real Susan and the real behind the scenes forum, I left that alone as did others here, but we kept an eye on it and sure enough it all came out.
And then Susan tried to lie her way out of it, and the shitload of people who read that just went all over it, the very worst of things came from people's opinions, ones who had been banned for minor slights.
It took a while to settle down, and a short time ago I ran across or was told about, an article in a online magazine where Susan talked about finally being able to get surgery and live as she is, a woman.
She included a full on pic of her in makeup done for that photoshoot, you could tell, but there she was, the real Susan and I wish her luck and hope the surgery did happen.

All of this was a space kind of thing, while we did have a dedicated section there, it started to grow a lot with the forest stuff, word of mouth I guess, and there were people from the transexual places that came over.
So they started to view this as encroaching on their space, their territory, dwindling their ranks and grow by the day.
It never detracted from them at all, it was a compliment to have us there and it did make for new members and another growing section.
But they just went off on that space thing, and in no time at all they had it in their heads that we were out to get them (to be honest we did gang up on moderators who over moderated).
And this is why people just have to take us down a notch with things like the snowflake crap, I think it is actually now claimed by the white supremacists and neo nazi groups in this country, they want to be special...

The answer to this is to live our lives and be as helpful as we can be to others, find the ways of talking in a way that other nb's understand, the numbers will grow, they already have, the binaries are scared, they call us names, they makeup shit, they go off on tangents of the hurricanes are our fault (we have been blamed for lots of stuff and are causing the end of times according to the lame preachers trying to claim their space).
So the odd stories do have a beginning and they do have substance to them, it isn't hard to get the gist of them when we talk in reference about them.
If you know what we mean, you know without questioning it, because you understand it.
If you want to know about those references and more, ask, we talk about it all the time.
The biggest takeaway from it all for me has been the further understanding that there are very very few things on this planet and in life that are really gendered.
Once the realization happens, the faster it grows and the more you understand not only us, but more importantly, yourself, living in a more NB worldview, living a better life than before when it made no sense at all.