being read as (i.e. "passing") and social codes

[Cypres]

Hello,

I just found this forum and hope that here I can find some understanding or at the very least I hope for a respectful critical conversation. Which both, to me at least, are ways of valuing a persons thoughts and feelings and that is what I am missing the most these days. From this results a feeling of being stuck, which leads to frustration. Besides the day to day bullshit I get, I realized that my friends either lack the experience and knowledge to help me deal with stuff that bothers me or they just have enough going on themselves. So the unfortunate result of this situation is that I feel alone and can not make much sense of a lot of things. But as it is, being a human, one needs other humans to make adequately sense of what is going on, that is why I decided to write this now, and I sincerely hope that some of you who read this are willing to engage with my thoughts.
I am an FTM, or rather I would say, I took steps that are considered to be done by people that fall under this term. Which means I was categorized female at birth and later in my live started to take hormones and had top surgery. But the thing is, even 3 years on testosterone and surgery I am either read as female (possibly lesbian) or as a gay man or as a trans woman and mostly by people who know some facts as a trans man (at least they try with the man part). Which is mainly I realize due to my self-presentation, but also somewhat beyond my control and at this point I am convinced that at least in the next couple of years I will not reach the point where I embody masculinity in a way that makes people read me as man or at least I will not get to a point where I am not a visibly gay men that defies stereotypical heterosexual masculinity.
So from this bizarre mixture of readings I get, I also get a variety of offensive, discriminatory bullshit. To make things clear, the one thing I did not get is white male privilege, except from few and rare encounters, but the shit outweighs these by far. But here is the thing, what I do get, if people know me as trans man, especially from white feminists, is the vibe that I now have privilege and am out of the club therefore, often well mixed with them being uncomfortable in my bodily presence. Also yes, when I was perceived as a cis-gender woman people sometimes looked at my breast, but as soon as people had trouble reading me, they started to stare, so unapologetically that most of the times I can’t even believe it, and this has in no way stopped after the surgery. I also had a person I had sexual encounters with “inspecting” my body to figure out if what they see might still not be true and if they only touch long and hard enough some breast might reveal themselves or they might find some scars which prove I had bottom surgery. Which sounds ridiculous and it certainly was, but it was also firstly painfull on a bodily level, but secondly on an emotional level very degrading, cause it did feel like I disappeared as person and became a body to inspect, like a dead corpse lying on the table, and I get the same feeling when people wont stop staring. While cis-gender woman that know me for years, more or less, seem to imagine some pain (because it’s surgery) and loss of identity in my presence, which confuses them, and than they either try to get away or become frustrated with their own feelings, the category of people who take me to be a trans woman, are just the weirdest, cause they actually lack any knowledge about trans people but seem to only have stereotypical bullshit in their minds about trans women, which we all know are no good at all. Thus they are either just prejudiced, bizarrely trying or outright hostile, which all stems from the same ignorance.
So I hope that that some of you can relate to the trouble of being confronted with the social codes and feelings of people directed towards you as gay, lesbian, trans man, trans woman and all the shit that comes with it; IN ONE DAY. Not only is that highly confusing, cause these codes are very different and how they are used also depends on the persons own social position (and significant intersections like race, class, disability, etc.), but with them comes a variety of forms discrimination or at the very least tension, cause people don’t know “how to handle you”. Thus my main response firstly was outright fear and disorientation in the world, nowadays I find myself increasingly react with frustration and retreat. So in short what I am thinking about right now, is how to handle the variety of social codes that are directed towards me, of which I can read and speak also plenty, which might not make the situation easier. For example if a heterosexual man might relate to me as a woman, maybe even a lesbian (I recognize that cause I lived as heterosexual woman and as lesbian, hence I instantly know what happens), I might use a mixture of my knowledge about how to interact as heterosexual woman from my past and newly acquired gay man code, because that might be the easiest way for me to relate to that person (without directly addressing the misreading or giving a speech about trans, gay and lesbian people and teaching a whole class in a small time, in trying not to offend that person cause that might make them angry and turn them against me). Not the same but equally complicated, according to my experience, is my interaction with gay man, either they read me as gay man and later on have a shitty reaction about my trans status, or they realize that something is “different” about me, which at first might be intriguing and interesting, but then they might feel rejected cause I am still finding my way though their very direct sexual codes, which as someone who was a heterosexual woman to me sometimes already feels like harassment due to my experiences (and it might well be, it’s not like gay men can’t harass other gay men, but to be fair, the codes are also very different, this I would like to address in more detail later).
Okay, I guess it makes sense to stop here and wait for any thoughtful responses. Thanks for reading : )

bye

[EchelonHunt]

It certainly is frustrating and I can understand what you are going through.

I don't understand white male privilege either but I accept that I have it now. Keep in mind, there are many transmen who are feminists and have used their white male privilege to speak out. It's a sad reality that transgender men have a platform to speak out about feminism, whereas when they were female, their voices would be dismissed. But oh, a MAN saying these things, calling people out on their sexist BS and mistreatment of women? People sit up and listen. Sexism is still so deeply rooted in society that a man's opinion has more sway over a woman's.

I showed my chest to a cisgender female lesbian at the LGBT club and she looked horrified and intrusively asked, "Why did you do that to yourself?" like "How dare you take away your beautiful breasts" so it was likely I was being seen as female, even though I've been on T for 5 years lol.

I am so sorry that person treated you like an object. Next time this happens, you must stop them and call them out on it. Explain that what they are doing is rude and dehumanizing. They may not have even realised that what they were doing was wrong. Always stand up for yourself, you deserve to be treated with love and respect both outside the bedroom and inside the bedroom.

I don't grow my beard out. That is why I do not pass 100% as a guy most times. If I grew my beard out, I'd pass more as a cisgender guy.

What do you mean, "I will not reach the point where I embody masculinity in a way that makes people read me as man"? Do you reject the idea of looking like a masculine man (beard, muscles, hairy body, etc.) or do you think T will not let you masculine your body enough to pass?

How long have you been on T?

Do you think you won't ever pass?

What is your ideal presentation as a man/masculine-presenting person?

Is there any features on yourself that you believe makes people think you are anything else but a man? Facial features, mannerisms, etc? Me, for example, I have a baby face and have always looked androgynous, whether presenting female or male. My female mannerisms get me slapped with the "gay male" label which is ok by me.

Hilarious story, I went to a cash register and the lady must have assumed I was a butch lesbian/masculine female and when I spoke, my deep voice threw her off guard so fast because her eyes widened like huge saucers. Looking back, it was SO FUNNY.

So even if it's frustrating, try to find the funny side of some situations.

Navigating the social aspect of life is always tricky. As a masculine person, sometimes I accidentally default to my female mannerisms and sometimes it throws people off whom I am stealth with, possibly outing me. But oh well, I can't help it. I was socially conditioned to be female, it's hard to change old habits.

Part of it is accepting that there are some traits of yourself that cannot be changed (e.g. for me, it's my androgynous face and female mannerisms), ignoring people who stare or asking them, "What are you looking at?" usually makes them jerk back to reality and look away (some people unintentionally stare and forget they're being rude) or just stare back at them equally hard lol.

Sorry I was not much help. Hopefully, other folks will chip in

[Trinity]

When they stare, and they do, I have a tendency to look them straight in the eye, not hostily, not fearfully. Just, I See You.

They always look away. They stare for who knows why. If I catch any kind of warmth there I will smile at them.

Screw what they think I am. I don't care what they think I am. I am a me. So my attitude is, for them...."deal with it".

FYI since you are new, I live all presentations and lifestyles that we live and present as trans. It comes natural for me.

[Leena]

I'm non-passing as MtF, and most people read me as a gay guy, unless I wear something completely feminine like a dress, which is really not my style. I choose to not care about that unless it is a woman I'm interested in. For me, that most people get that I'm LGBTQ+ from my presentation is good enough, that their assumptions are a bit off on the details aren't really that important.

I don't really get that many stares, though I live in a fairly liberal area, and tend to dress less flamboyant than many of the locals. I sometimes don't tone it down enough when I travel to the Southeast...

I may get some white male privilege at times, though I think that concept is a bit overstated...not all white males are doing all that well, I'd say the majority are not actually. When I was younger and identified as a long haired white guy, I was harassed by the police quite often, though I wasn't killed obviously. Things aren't really all that great unless you are a rich, straight, preppy, middle-aged or older white guy.

[Cypres]

Thank you for your responses.
I am on T for 3 years now, but I started with a very low dose and even since I use the full dose my body kind of didn't go along with it, so that my estrogen just keeps spiking over and over again and my body hasn't settled down at all, but up until now I refused to take on addional hormones or blockers.

As for bodily changes I had quite a few if you ask me, but at best I look like a "little skinny feminine guy" (wich would be fine with me), also I am blond so the little beard I got is only visible if you are one meter in front of me. When my voice started to crack I had to teach and literaly everybody around me freaked out, so I unconsciously used all my strenght to sound like before, which essentially lead to the point where I do sound like a woman. I basically use the same technic that trans women have to learn for years, which was revealed when I saw a speech therapist who works with trans people.
But as it stands now, even if I try to make an effort, the more nervous I get the worse it is, even if I might have been read as male before, the minute I start to speak they are super confused and that's where they either think I must be a trans woman on hormones or a female person without breasts; because here is the thing I also dress way to colorfully and behave appearantly like a woman.

As for the white male privilege, well that is a super complicated story.
The environement I am mostly surounded with is very aware of white male privilege and gives more weight to accounts of people who live through things (wich I appreciate a lot, since we all know, the majority of the world is very different). Which leads to the bizzare fact, that my past somewhat gets ignored and combine that with a binary understanding leaves me on the side of now having it, which has no connection to my day-to-day live.
Also I realized since I do trans and feminist theory and did this for years, the way I am talking about this even to strangers gives me away, because they realize that what I am talking about does not come from theory but from experience, for instance I am more likely to use phrases like "as a woman ..." as opposed to "for women ..." which reveals my deep affiliation which that identity which I am also not willing to give up somehow, because it brought me here.
Then I guess I show emotional responses, that can be read as having lived trough certain things. But to be fair, I think that this might change somewhat someday, depending on my experiences and behaiviors.

But the other transmasculine people I know or see online, have quick changes and do not get stuck in this "unidentifiable phase", even thought they might fall from being a female presenting masculine to the male presenting feminine part, I am at a "what the fuck is this person doing and if they transition from where to where?" (I was asked that by a professor, so yes, I am sure, that people can not make sense of me at all). A friend of mine said "You broke gender!", well yes I did, but this is really stressfull, because I don't feel like I consciously deceided to do that and thereby irritate people, combined with my social anxiety issues I am more stressed out than empowered by defeing what people think sex/gender is.

I was reading antother post from Trinity yesterday night and then wondered if I also fear that my live could be taken over by a male identity, cause I do not want to be the evil white man, but it seems I just do not know how to emobody maculinity without the fear that people might read me as such, so I am constantly undermining myself in order to not be threat to anybody else. And that is not beside me doing feminist and anti-racist activism but precisely because I value these commitments so much.

In an ideal world, I could present as white male person, without making people of color and women uncomfortable, but I guess that is unlikely to happen, which makes me sad and confused. I wonder if it is actually me who is the most scared of white heterosexual seeming masculinity ...

[EchelonHunt]

It may be unlikely but what you can do is, be kind and respectful to everyone you meet, that will dismantle the white cis-male stereotype (which I assume is, white, cis, heterosexual, homophobic, sexist, creeper, perpetuating rape culture, potential rapist rolled into one)

In regards to strangers, you cannot help their reaction. For example, I was walking behind a woman, she was walking to her destination but I was walking to the bus stop which just so happened to be on the way to wherever she was going. She kept looking over her shoulder, was terrified of my advancing presence and moved faster. I did not know how to react to that situation. I could have smiled but that might have came off as predatory or I could have just nodded my head in acknowledgement. If that happens next time, I would probably tell her or reassure her that I'm not going to hurt her. Or who knows, maybe she wasn't terrified of me, maybe she was in a hurry to her destination or maybe she shoplifted from a nearby store and wanted to quickly get away, it's always hard to determine these kind of things!

It hurts, yes but you cannot blame women for being uncomfortable and afraid. It is not your fault, it is society's fault, the social conditioning they received growing up to always be afraid, that men will just take what they want when they want it. God knows I still have that social conditioning within me, being a victim of rape myself... by a male "friend" who coerced my drunken self into sex (PIV) I would have NEVER consented to while sober.

I am also like you, I am stuck in that "unidentifiable phase". You aren't alone. At times, I find it distressing. I only notice the stares when I'm self-conscious or anxious, perhaps people pick up on those emotions in my facial expressions because I noticed the stares are less if I'm not actively looking for stares and am occupied with my current task at hand when walking in public.

I believe this video may be helpful - it is a transman who identifies as a woman, politically and experientially.

[Cypres]

Thank you. Did you feel like I am blaming anybody? I guess what I rather wanted to express, is that I would need an acknowledgement of my past and of my current fears, I am afraid of man! Even more than before, because trans and homophobia, because when I go to the park and want to use the toilet I am likely to meet a man there again who wants to cruise, which scares the shit out of me. And who might himself be homophobic or have a huge fear of that (just quickly a friend of mine had some raltions and then the person got scared and repeated over and over again that they are going to kill him if he tells anybody). Mainly I realize that is because it is new and I lack the skills to deal with gay men code and espicially with violence among men, while I grew into sexism and at some point got better at handling it. I am not blaming, but I could use some understanding on a personal level and I don't know where to go with this. Because cis-women don't get it and gay men don't get it either. If thats is intursive don't answer, but are you trying to connect to gay men? Did that lead to a spike in your anxiety because you have past experiences of sexual harassment and abuse and gay men just act like everything is 'easy' and are very direct?

[EchelonHunt]

I don't think you are blaming anybody. I understand your fears and concerns, they are completely valid and I'm sure many other transmasculine people have struggled with the same things.

Hung Jury, Testimonies of Genital Surgery By Transsexual Men - this book documents experiences transmen had - one included a transman who previously identified as a heterosexual woman, now as a gay man. He had fears and concerns about navigating gay men-oriented spaces, mainly felt a surge of anxiety due to his transgender status, that he felt he "had something to hide". After he had phalloplasty, he still had to learn how to navigate the social cues in gay men circles but overall he felt more comfortable with his body.

I'm probably not the best person to ask as I do not connect to gay men or actively pursue them, due to being asexual. I have, however, felt anxiety around men in general. One guy I used to see, he identified as heteroflexible and made it very apparent he was sexually attracted to me and shown signs of being emotionally attached to me. I, on the other hand, didn't feel that way at all. During sexual encounters, I would be unable to relax or give myself in fully. Outside of the bedroom, I would relax when we were just casually chatting about mundane things. I came to the conclusion that sexual situations aren't for me until I am comfortable in my body. If even then, it doesn't happen, that's okay too because all my life, since before puberty, sex, relationships, marriage, family, these things hold little importance to me.

Valerie had a really good post they made about experiences they went through. This is the thread, I quoted Valerie's post below.

Oct 27, 2016 3:00:00 GMT 8 Valerie said:

TW: rape discussion
I absolutely 100% agree with everything Kai, wrote! And honestly I mean I know you guys (I mean guys as in plural form meaning of southern "y'all" not misgendering anyone) don't mean to you know be coming off or saying in way that it's frustrating that women/ afab individuals shouldn't automatically be distrustful, or assuming a male/amab person will attack them, but honestly you can't get mad or frustrated with them for that! You don't know if someone is actually genuinely just being friendly, or if they're not going to hurt them at all. They've had to learn to survive, and keep safe! You can't blame them for being angry that men are pinning after younger girls because honestly they have every right to be angry! That makes me angry because that's predatory behavior. A 30 year old or older shouldn't be going after, flirting, or even thinking of being with anyone under 18 & 18 to 28 those if there is at least a 20 year difference between them it's just comes off creepy and predatory. I mean it's clearly because of their youth and beauty and being seen as just young sexual object.
I hear it all time from my coworkers who are underage girls. The amount of times they talk to me about creepy older men that are flirting with them, and making them extremely uncomfortable, but they have to keep smiling, and being friendly because that's customer service. It angers me that they have to put up with that disgusting predatory behavior, and not even safe at work from it. I've even witnessed my General Manager, check out a young lady's butt, and say to him self "daddy likes", and he has 3 young daughters himself! How disgusting! You'd think a father would learn to be respectful towards women, how would he like it if another man treated his daughters like that!
Let's be honest majority of cis men are predatory, especially older ones, and they even sometimes think they're entitled to sex just for paying for dinner! Rape culture is just running rapid, & men get away all the time for their sexual entitlement, and predatory behavior. Again I must apologize I don't mean to generalize and say all cis men because not all are, but honestly majority are! And you can never know or tell if someone is just being friendly, or if they're being friendly and then if the man will think you're coming on to them just from being friendly. Literally men have used that as excuse for raping someone, "they were being friendly & were dressed inappropriately. I mean they were clearly leading me on" it's literally dangerous! You can't be friendly to a man without them thinking you're coming on to them!
I mean it's even within the gay community I witness it all time, and dealt with it myself. Older guys always come on to us younger guys, and they are extremely admit whether it's on apps, or in person.
I've had an older guy like a year ago come in at Panera all time, and he'd always come on to me really hard, and it made me uncomfortable because I had to be friendly no matter what as to not lose my job, so I'd always try to evade his advances, but it also bothered me because like I was working, & this is my job like stop flirting with me, and trying to get me to come over your house. Like this is my job we're not at a bar.
Like even online I get guys messaging me, and I tell them no I'm not interested in hooking up, and none of them just can't take no for an answer they always ask why and keep pushing me even after I said no, and gave a reason. Like you should have left me alone after I said no the first time! I've even had a guy say to me "you have a dick use it" because I kept saying no to letting him suck me. That fucking disgusted me, and angered me because it's my fucking body not yours! I have every right to let, or not let someone be with me, and just because you want me doesn't mean I have to let you have my body.
I've even had happen to me on several occasions where I've hooked up with someone, and they wanted to go at it again and I'd say no, and repeatedly no that I didn't want to, but they kept pushing & I just let them do whatever, and waited for it to be over with. I've even had a time where I met someone at a bar, and they wanted to hook up, & I kept saying no over & over, and they kept pushing, and asked if they could at least come over and hang out, I said no and gave reasons why, but they were so pushy, and so I gave in & I kept saying nothing was gonna happen between us. At my house I kept saying no every time they made moves, or even tried anything with me, and I kept admittedly saying no I didn't want to have sex, or anything physical to happen! But while I was asleep they tried kissing me, and touching me. Waking up to that was the most disturbing thing ever because I clearly told them no several times, and they just took what they wanted like I was some fucking object!!! I didn't feel like a person, I felt like just an object afterwards! And even worse it makes me feel powerless now, and like even saying no and trying to stand for myself means nothing because people will just take what they want anyways!!
Cis Men can never seem to accept no at face front, and they keep pushing, & pushing until you just give in and let them have what want which is an abusive manipulation tactic! They really need to be more respectful, and not try to be so predatory all time.
So that's why women/afab individuals shouldn't be shamed, or made into like they're bad for being overly cautious with cis men for survival. You can't tell what someone friendliness is good intention, or bad. And saying not all men are like that isn't very helpful because we already know that, but sadly it's a game of Russian Roulette, on a daily basis for cis women, trans women, and afab individuals if a cis man discovers they are afab. Better to play it safely, and stay safe.
In my experiences I've never really noticed, or dealt with what you've observed. Although I normally don't purposely go up to people I don't know, & talk to them. I try to avoid interacting with as much as I can while out & about. But umm I've never expressed women avoid me, not smile at me, or give me a dirty look. Normally I smile at anyone I make eye contact with while walking around, & people smile back. Although I do tend to avoid looking at other men though. Idk maybe it's way I carry myself, my body language, the energy I give off, or because I'm young? Or who knows if it's because I'm gay, and so women feel more comfortable & safer around me? I've literally been told several occasions that they knew I was gay as soon as I opened my mouth, or walked in room. It's like oh wow thanks? Thanks for letting me know that cis heteros can know I'm LGBT right away makes me feel safe...
But anyways, yea I agree with others Jenn, since you're presenting more feminine, or even have more feminine energy coming from you then other women will feel a bit more comfortable & pick up on it, and not register you as a predatory creep.
Gosh, I'm sorry I got into such a rant, & I hope I didn't offend anyone, or over step my boundaries. I've just been dealing with so many thoughts, emotions, and remembering my experiences lately, and I even actually brought them up in counseling this morning, which now has made it fresh pain in me again, & I'm nauseously sick feeling from dealing with this again. I'm so sorry!

[Cypres]

well, I guess that about is the same I experience and then I have to go back to my white cis hetero woman friend or to the white cis hetero feminists I work with and who do a lot of research on harassment and rape(thus should be the ones to talk to)and they brush it of, cause men are equal and that is all just play ... : (
my therapist is actually a trans men himself and he is working with me on changing my social structure and not cling onto unhealthy relationships, that is a great thing, but now it kind of let to the first phase of break down, meaning I do have less connection to the people who where there and no new ones to substitute with, also my job perspectives are just going out of the window, because it get's increasingly harder to work with these women. I guess it will take a while until I find some people who get it. In the meanwhile I am greatfull you created this forum : )

[Deleted]

I really hate to be a "Debbie Downer" but I don't care who or what you are, you will always face discrimination in society. Ya'll want some examples? Drug addict, pot head, inbred, hillbilly, white trash, tranny, shemale, gay, lesbian, nigger, cracker, honkey, sissy, butch, queer, faggot, camel jockey, injun, and so on and on it goes. Ugh let's not forget whore, slut and dawg or horn dawg. I have been called 13 of these names out of 18 labels. 12 out of 18? Social codes really don't mean shit. Your happiness does though.

Just give it some time. Usually T works better on FTMs than MTFs. I personally think T sux but I really never experienced the whole T thing though. I get pissed but I cry. I get anxious during stressful situations and instead of a bravado and an "I don't give a fuck" attitude, I get totally scared and just long to be held.

I mean social codes? Really? What is a social code? I have seen lesbians that were more man than I have ever been. I used to cry during sad chick flicks than my ex wife ever did. Hell she was a bigger dick than any man I have ever met.

I mean I pass really good as a "tranny". I don't care. There are some really good guys out there that will love me for that. There are a few people out there that will hate me for it too. But the way I see it is that there are some really ugly women out there and the guys that like me are better looking than some of these cis women can date. so I am a trans woman. I don't care. My boyfriends never cared. I am prettier than some cis women and way sexier even. My ex's ex sister-in-law was ugly as shit. Weighed upward to 400 pounds, didn't even shave her legs and shower's???? I think she was allergic to water. Brushing her teeth?, she had orange looking plaque at her gum line and her teeth were actually brown. She turned out to be lesbian and I even s a transbian wouldn't touch her with a 10 ft. pole. She is a cis woman.

So no matter what have enough pride in yourself to stay clean and be the best you can be and you won't have too many problems.