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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2016 1:50:50 GMT 8
Also Foxxy we are in agreement. Dont get me wrong i just may not be communicating very well. When i say both sides im not talking about defending the old narrative. Far from it. I know, Trinity. I was just joking with you. I didn't exclude transsexuals, just said (in so many words..) that 'the path' narrative has outlived it's usefulness as the right way. I think we are all in agreement with that, in it's most basic form. You know, Ativan, the way I see it, I'm not sure the "transsexual narrative" was ever useful. It may have been unavoidable, but its usefulness was extremely limited. As I see it, the problem we transpeople have is that we're being forced to react to a narrative imposed on us--the male-female binary. Thus, to justify ourselves we have to come up with a narrative of our own. E.g., if I don't want to live male, how am I going to justify living female? When I need to pee, given my appearance, I can't possibly use the gents'. So how do I justify using the ladies? Or if transsexuals or NB people or whoever want a different sort of legal status, we have to give legislators some sort of narrative to justify the change we're requesting/demanding. So, since we needed a narrative, perhaps the transsexual narrative was inevitable, given that cispeople only understand two things--male and female. So they might accept a narrative that says, "I'm really male instead of female," or "Psychologically I'm suited to living male instead of female," or some variation of that. That's as much of a challenge that they could perhaps have initially handled. But I don't see the transsexual narrative as particularly helpful or necessary in ways. E.g., when a transwoman says, "I'm a woman," that antagonizes a certain amount of people. That may perhaps be something we don't need to worry about. A certain number of people are going to be antagonized no matter what we say. But I also feel that by and large people don't need any narrative at all. Some cispeople are curious and ask questions. A lot of them don't. In my little town I've never had to give anybody any explanations. I just switched over, nobody really cared, and life went on. Or as one guy put it, "You're just doing your thing, aren't you?" That was all the narrative he needed. Where I see the transsexual narrative as harmful is this insistence that a transwoman is a woman. A transwoman may be a woman of some sort, we can argue till the cows come home about that. But no transperson is going to claim that a transwoman is the same thing as a ciswoman. For me, to a certain extent, this is a semantic argument that detracts from the real issue: how are we going to live happily? I can't see how all the academic arguing we've been doing has helped much. And this of course doesn't touch on the problems that the transsexual narrative creates for people who aren't transsexual. Just yesterday I exchanged a number of e-mails with my sister. She lives in Kansas and had seen an article about Kansas' anti-LGBT legislation that's in the works. She was horrified. She has a trans sibling and gay daughter besides a number of gay acquaintances, so naturally she's outraged. At the end of the day, this is how we're going to win the war. People know us. They may not know that they know us, but they do. And when they realize that they know us, they'll realize there's no good reason to harass us, and they'll leave us alone. The practical details--who can marry who?, who do you bake cakes for?,which f**** bathroom do you pee in?-- will be settled. And they won't need any narrative. You don't need to be told a story that you already know.
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Post by Shan on Mar 26, 2016 2:20:41 GMT 8
mails with my sister. She lives in Kansas and had seen an article about Kansas' anti-LGBT legislation that's in the works. She was horrified. She has a trans sibling and gay daughter besides a number of gay acquaintances, so naturally she's outraged. At the end of the day, this is how we're going to win the war. People know us. They may not know that they know us, but they do. And when they realize that they know us, they'll realize there's no good reason to harass us, and they'll leave us alone. The practical details--who can marry who?, who do you bake cakes for?,which f**** bathroom do you pee in?-- will be settled. And they won't need any narrative. You don't need to be told a story that you already know. That's what worked with my wife who initially held a very negative view of transexuals, until her younger brother came out as gay, it caused her to reevaluate her thinking across the board about the whole LGBTIQ thing and she has become very accepting, meeting Julie was extremely helpful as well, because Julie isn't afraid to discuss anything with anyone, as long as the conversation remains civil.
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Post by Trinity on Mar 26, 2016 3:04:49 GMT 8
Hey Foxxy you're so good with the sarcasm i never know.
I agree that the bigots are making themselves look like ignorant animals.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2016 4:59:08 GMT 8
Hey Foxxy you're so good with the sarcasm i never know. If you just work with the idea that everything I say (including this) is sarcastic, you'll be on the right track. I suppose if I am on rare occasion speaking seriously, I should preface the remark with, "THIS IS SERIOUS, FOLKS! NO BS!"
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Post by Shan on Mar 26, 2016 5:05:11 GMT 8
The author of the article is actually a very unhappy person and this part of their rant brings to mind the thought of someone with obvious boobs, a five o'clock shadow and a bulging crotch. Now this is just my opinion but there are some things everyone should be mindful of when it comes to presentation regardless of the fact that we may not now or ever pass, something that has never been important to me. Thankfully I was never endowed with a big Polska Kielbasa in my pants like some anyway, and having had an orchiectomy relieved me with most of the "package" so it's never been an issue for me. But this part of his rant leaves me cold because something like this draws ridicule and disgust from just about everyone in a public situation, we don't need any more negative press. Just my opinion so if you disagree don't get your hackles up folks.
“One of the most disgusting and absolutely obnoxious practices I’ve learned of since of since joining the transgender community is the expectation that I will “tuck” my testicles, strap down my penis, or otherwise hide it’s existence. Sorry, I refuse to engage or participate in this lunacy. And in fact, I think it’s downright harmful. Even worse, I found myself faced with having get into a public argument recently with a transgender woman when she publicly stated in a news article comment that “all transgender girls tuck their penis.” What kind of message was she sending to our transgender youth that don’t? This is the exact behavior that has created the toxic concept of being ashamed of your genitals when you’re a transgender person. And it just fuels the expectation that transgender women should remove their penis in accordance with the standards set forth in the transsexual pathway. And until they do remove their penis, then it should be hidden, and they should be ashamed of it. Stop making transgender people ashamed of their genitals dammit!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2016 14:47:21 GMT 8
I'd agree entirely with you, Shan. This writer has a lot of stuff out on the net now, and if you look at her credentials, they're impeccable. Yet what she's writing all comes across the same way. You're right: she's an unhappy person, and it appears to me the reason is that she wasn't thinking for herself. She was getting advice from various places, and it appears she went along with it without really thinking about whether it would be good or right for her.
A lot of us are in the same boat: when you're new to the game and learning new stuff, you see all sorts of things that you can do or might want to do. But nobody can force you to do anything. I myself, being the ornery cuss that I am, don't let anybody tell me what to do. And in fact I've never done a thing I didn't want to do. The result is that I'm a happier person than this writer.
Another result is that she's less than honest. Like here:
Stop making transgender people ashamed of their genitals dammit!
Her contention here is that it's transgender people--more specifically, transsexuals--who are trying to make transkids ashamed of their genitals. Which is rubbish. Either you dislike your genitals or you don't. It depends on what transgenderism means to you personally. And if you're OK with your genitals, then nobody can force you to do anything. If there are some transsexuals trying to pressure you to get rid of them, you're free to ignore them.
And here is where this writer is going wrong again. Transsexuals as a bloc do not advise people to get rid of their genitals. I have no doubt there are some who do. But more typically transsexuals will advise you that surgery is something you want to be very careful about it. If you can get by without it, don't do it. You only do it if you can't live or function properly without it. In other words, this writer is claiming that transsexuals as a group are saying stuff that they're not saying. Many transsexuals will in fact give you fair warning and good advice. The reason I'm happy enough these days is because I listened to those warnings and advice. This writer obviously didn't. So now she's blaming people for giving advice that they're not in fact giving.
This writer is the sort you will see from time to time: their experience has been bad, so now they turn on the transgender community and attack it in ways very similar to the methods of cis trans-haters. Whenever I see such a person, they generally make it clear that the reason for their bad experience was their lack of thought. You do need to think for yourself. And there's no point in blaming others if you don't.
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Post by Shan on Mar 26, 2016 23:50:12 GMT 8
I had attended transgender support group meetings several years ago in Seattle and always came away with the thought that the group was just assuming that everyone would eventually have SRS as if it was essential to, and the crowning achievement of the transition, it was a group-think mindset. There were counselors just down the hallway that were more than happy to take one's money and tell them what they wanted to hear and after purging what they could from their pocketbook, would sign approval letters for hormones and later for SRS. Following SRS when returning to the group, there was always spontaneous applause. It dawned on me then that this was a business where a wide eyed newby wondering about their own gender orientation, would wander in and before long the group had set the hook and reeled in another wide eyed big fish who generally wasn't able to think well for themselves and just bought into the group mantra. I actually bought into it and went all the way to having a pre-op consultation with Marcie Bowers before I came to and decided that SRS wasn't what I really wanted to do after all.
I get the feeling that more than a few have followed through and later thought, "What have I done?" I know that I kind of felt that way following my orchiectomy even though it was more of a medical necessity at the time. There were however alternatives but I had bought into the idea that eventually I'd undergo SRS. Now I know that some like myself might have immediate regrets, but following surgery one has to realize that what's done is permanent and then move on with their lives and forget about any bitter feelings because as in my case the decision was all mine and I am the only one responsible for making it. I'm not unhappy or bitter about my decision because there has been a lot of water under the bridge since then and I have come to the realization that this non binary androgynous person is who I am now and I am happy having come to terms with it some time ago. I have often commented about how important it is for people to think things through thoroughly and not be influenced by what others do.
Sorry about all the I's in this post, I'm not big on a lot of I, I, me, me stuff. The idea was to present my own experience as an example for the newbys reading this person's pitiable rant at the start of the thread.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2016 2:23:22 GMT 8
I have often commented about how important it is for people to think things through thoroughly and not be influenced by what others do. Exactly. There are people who don't think and then they want to blame somebody else. People can give you options, but it doesn't mean you have to take them. It does help to have your head in the game.
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Post by Shan on Mar 27, 2016 4:55:29 GMT 8
Stop making transgender people ashamed of their genitals dammit!Her contention here is that it's transgender people--more specifically, transsexuals--who are trying to make transkids ashamed of their genitals. Which is rubbish. Either you dislike your genitals or you don't. It depends on what transgenderism means to you personally. And if you're OK with your genitals, then nobody can force you to do anything. If there are some transsexuals trying to pressure you to get rid of them, you're free to ignore them. And here is where this writer is going wrong again. Transsexuals as a bloc do not advise people to get rid of their genitals. I have no doubt there are some who do. But more typically transsexuals will advise you that surgery is something you want to be very careful about it. If you can get by without it, don't do it. You only do it if you can't live or function properly without it. In other words, this writer is claiming that transsexuals as a group are saying stuff that they're not saying. Many transsexuals will in fact give you fair warning and good advice. The reason I'm happy enough these days is because I listened to those warnings and advice. This writer obviously didn't. So now she's blaming people for giving advice that they're not in fact giving. This writer is the sort you will see from time to time: their experience has been bad, so now they turn on the transgender community and attack it in ways very similar to the methods of cis trans-haters. Whenever I see such a person, they generally make it clear that the reason for their bad experience was their lack of thought. You do need to think for yourself. And there's no point in blaming others if you don't. There are plenty of examples in other websites where the militant trans women and trans men imply by insinuation that those who keep their genitals aren't trans enough. Those snarky comments led to a huge revolt at the last place not long ago. Typically many of the drones both MtF and FtM unable to generate their own thoughts on the subject fell into further self loathing over the fact that they had the genitalia that they had been born with. The "Mean Girl" and Mean Guy" cliques just loved how they squirmed over it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2016 5:44:31 GMT 8
Shan, I'm not denying that such people exist. But there are plenty of transsexuals that don't take that line. On one big forum I used to be on, such people would have been rare exceptions. I've also heard plenty of transpeople reject this notion that "you're not trans enough." There are lots of different viewpoints out there. If you've got any smarts at all, you think for yourself.
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Post by Shan on Mar 27, 2016 6:21:57 GMT 8
Shan, I'm not denying that such people exist. But there are plenty of transsexuals that don't take that line. On one big forum I used to be on, such people would have been rare exceptions. I've also heard plenty of transpeople reject this notion that "you're not trans enough." There are lots of different viewpoints out there. If you've got any smarts at all, you think for yourself. Well yeah I suppose you are right and I'm painting it with a rather broad brush. Usually "the not trans enough" BS was fostered by someone looking for validation by denigrating others. I took note of it, considered the source and moved on while others went ballistic.
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Post by Kira on Mar 27, 2016 6:47:21 GMT 8
I got halfway through the article and tuned out because of the anger. Angry people don't make rational arguments. There is some merit in there tho.
The system is set up as binary, because when people started to treat us, they had a very basic understanding and a basic tool set. We do need to move on.
I remember being warned about saying that I believe gender is a spectrum in the UK, and I remember when I said it, my evaluator looked at me with a 'better watch what you are saying' look, until I qualified it, that I was right over one end. They let me pass. Its all about worrying about taking the wrap for someones regret. They want to make sure you are a clear cut case, a black and white case.
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Post by Shan on Mar 27, 2016 6:58:09 GMT 8
I got halfway through the article and tuned out because of the anger. Angry people don't make rational arguments. There is some merit in there tho. The system is set up as binary, because when people started to treat us, they had a very basic understanding and a basic tool set. We do need to move on. I remember being warned about saying that I believe gender is a spectrum in the UK, and I remember when I said it, my evaluator looked at me with a 'better watch what you are saying' look, until I qualified it, that I was right over one end. They let me pass. Its all about worrying about taking the wrap for someones regret. They want to make sure you are a clear cut case, a black and white case. Yes and rightly so Kira, I'd give you a pass in a heartbeat probably because I know you well enough and I'm biased. But you're right, there are more than a few that probably shouldn't consider full transition. I'm saying that because some I've been witness to had a horrible outcome and another with gallon sized implants and a James Earl Jones voice was just a mess and made everyone in the TG community wince at the sight and sound of the person.
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Post by Kira on Mar 27, 2016 6:59:41 GMT 8
I kind of felt like the writer resented people like me! Its not my fault though! x
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Post by Shan on Mar 27, 2016 7:03:14 GMT 8
I kind of felt like the writer resented people like me! Its not my fault though! x I suspect that you are right! I clicked on the article and that person's photo is at the end of it and I swear I've seen them at Susan's some time back.
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