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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 7:51:11 GMT 8
So often we get an increasingly ignorant smack down by the cis community as they insist that our DNA is sufficient for determining gender insisting that if your chromosomes are XY then you're a male, and if XX then you are female. Interestingly enough they are forever unwilling to explore alternate possibilities as it may just require a little extra thought beyond the parameters of what is considered the general norm.
Initially what brought this to mind a long time ago for me came as a result of sitting in a SE Asian rain forest on several occasions all night long while the moisture re-condensed on the canopy above and brought down as droplets of water laced with the recently sprayed defoliant know as Agent Orange on my hot sweat soaked jungle fatigues and into the open pores of my body. The net result after many years was a somewhat scrambled endocrine system and problems that resulted in becoming surgically neutered. The ensuing argument with the Veteran's Administration by the manufacturer Monsanto's batteries of attorneys is centered around the burden of proof. I can recall many years prior to having been exposed to lots of DDT the now banned insect killer, and a product called Energine which was a now banned spot remover used by dry cleaners known to cause liver damage.
As I had cited earlier there is now widespread use of bio engineered seeds, chemical pesticides and fertilizers used in agriculture, hormones to increase livestock growth and milk production, and food product enhancers and preservatives all of which are ingested by human beings and are causing mutations to DNA according to scientific studies. So let's hear what you have to say to the brain dead Johnney One Note cis crowd about how indeterminate your gender really is from that of your birth DNA, because trust me, you're not the same person you started out to be!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 8:37:32 GMT 8
OH hell, Aunty Shan. To me gender is a frame of mind. I cry during chick flix, Psychologically I am female. DNA and the fastest sperm with the Y chromosome not to mention nature screwed me. So now I got to play the cards I was dealt. I think sex and what turns us on is a lot easier for society to understand. I mean gender is confusing. How can I be physical male but think female. I can't even think male anymore. Hell I never really could. So no, Gender is an extremely hard thing to understand. Sex isn't though. That is instinctual, raw and always in the front of everyone's mind. Even my own. So sex is way easier to understand. Gender though is way more complex. Why does my "little thing" not work or ever really has? Oh I get turned on and hotter than the flames of hell but it is a mental event for me. Why do I have little boobs? Why am I a female in a male body? Sex is physical. Physical body. Most Cis have the psychological thinking to go with it. Gender is way deeper. Gender resides in the mind or the Psyche and is more psychological. Oh though, it causes us real misery. I know because I just spent three day in hell and it hurt. To physically feel disgusted because the parts may not be right. But DNA is what I may appear to be even if I little freakish. "If You're a Freak Like Me, Get on the Bus." (a little Halestorm there.) But gender is way deeper. Gender is the way I feel. Gender is the way I think. Gender is who I really am with all the physical attributes stripped from me. Like one wise person said before or something like it anyway, Gender is our true core. Mine happens to be female. Those female attributes is at the root of the way I think, the way I act, the way I feel and the real me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 8:49:52 GMT 8
OH hell, Aunty Shan. To me gender is a frame of mind. I cry during chick flix, Psychologically I am female. DNA and the fastest sperm with the Y chromosome not to mention nature screwed me. So now I got to play the cards I was dealt. I think sex and what turns us on is a lot easier for society to understand. I mean gender is confusing. How can I be physical male but think female. I can't even think male anymore. Hell I never really could. So no, Gender is an extremely hard thing to understand. Sex isn't though. That is instinctual, raw and always in the front of everyone's mind. Even my own. So sex is way easier to understand. Gender though is way more complex. Why does my "little thing" not work or ever really has? Oh I get turned on and hotter than the flames of hell but it is a mental event for me. Why do I have little boobs? Why am I a female in a male body? Sex is physical. Physical body. Most Cis have the psychological thinking to go with it. Gender is way deeper. Gender resides in the mind or the Psyche and is more psychological. Oh though, it causes us real misery. I know because I just spent three day in hell and it hurt. To physically feel disgusted because the parts may not be right. But DNA is what I may appear to be even if I little freakish. "If You're a Freak Like Me, Get on the Bus." (a little Halestorm there.) But gender is way deeper. Gender is the way I feel. Gender is the way I think. Gender is who I really am with all the physical attributes stripped from me. Like one wise person said before or something like it anyway, Gender is our true core. Mine happens to be female. Those female attributes is at the root of the way I think, the way I act, the way I feel and the real me. You're right for the most part but the mainstream cis person only see's us in terms of binary DNA and if I can be the devil's advocate here, they only view your mental gender as a load of delusional crap unfortunately, and that in spite of what I previously mentioned as part of the unraveling of their oversimplification of the current understanding of how compromised DNA strains have become, all of which has everything to to with triggering GID and the accompanying dysphoria.
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Post by Patty on Nov 23, 2014 9:25:19 GMT 8
From what I understand we are two parts, one is our outside appearing gender the other is our gender identity this is what our core is made of. From speaking with my therapist I now am sure my core has been feminine from the start I just adapted to my environment to survive .My brothers gave me a hard lesson in that, if it had not been for them I am sure I would have turned out different. So I ended up a bitch in a big man suit and because I stood out, learned how to navigate my way through life as a hologram of a hard male.My emotion was anger everything else was stifled for fear of discovery that I was really a marsh mellow inside and very fragile in truth. Does my dna matter, nope does the fact that I am more than likely a DES son matter, nope, what really matters is that I am now true to my core and for once in my life at peace with myself and truly happy with my life. Patty
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 9:57:40 GMT 8
From what I understand we are two parts, one is our outside appearing gender the other is our gender identity this is what our core is made of. From speaking with my therapist I now am sure my core has been feminine from the start I just adapted to my environment to survive .My brothers gave me a hard lesson in that, if it had not been for them I am sure I would have turned out different. So I ended up a bitch in a big man suit and because I stood out, learned how to navigate my way through life as a hologram of a hard male.My emotion was anger everything else was stifled for fear of discovery that I was really a marsh mellow inside and very fragile in truth. Does my dna matter, nope does the fact that I am more than likely a DES son matter, nope, what really matters is that I am now true to my core and for once in my life at peace with myself and truly happy with my life. Patty The most loving soul I ever met...that's why we call you mother here...
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Post by Patty on Nov 23, 2014 10:12:04 GMT 8
Trinity you are just very biased ,I love you too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 11:40:30 GMT 8
OH hell, Aunty Shan. To me gender is a frame of mind. I cry during chick flix, Psychologically I am female. DNA and the fastest sperm with the Y chromosome not to mention nature screwed me. So now I got to play the cards I was dealt. I think sex and what turns us on is a lot easier for society to understand. I mean gender is confusing. How can I be physical male but think female. I can't even think male anymore. Hell I never really could. So no, Gender is an extremely hard thing to understand. Sex isn't though. That is instinctual, raw and always in the front of everyone's mind. Even my own. So sex is way easier to understand. Gender though is way more complex. Why does my "little thing" not work or ever really has? Oh I get turned on and hotter than the flames of hell but it is a mental event for me. Why do I have little boobs? Why am I a female in a male body? Sex is physical. Physical body. Most Cis have the psychological thinking to go with it. Gender is way deeper. Gender resides in the mind or the Psyche and is more psychological. Oh though, it causes us real misery. I know because I just spent three day in hell and it hurt. To physically feel disgusted because the parts may not be right. But DNA is what I may appear to be even if I little freakish. "If You're a Freak Like Me, Get on the Bus." (a little Halestorm there.) But gender is way deeper. Gender is the way I feel. Gender is the way I think. Gender is who I really am with all the physical attributes stripped from me. Like one wise person said before or something like it anyway, Gender is our true core. Mine happens to be female. Those female attributes is at the root of the way I think, the way I act, the way I feel and the real me. You're right for the most part but the mainstream cis person only see's us in terms of binary DNA and if I can be the devil's advocate here, they only view your mental gender as a load of delusional crap unfortunately, and that in spite of what I previously mentioned as part of the unraveling of their oversimplification of the current understanding of how compromised DNA strains have become, all of which has everything to to with triggering GID and the accompanying dysphoria.Your right Shan. But we are special. So I'm delusional in the eyes of society. That is by far not the worst thing that people in society has called me. You mentioned Devil's Advocate. Growing up in Arkansas, playing in a band among all the good Pentecostal folks, my mom included, I was called the Devil. Hell playing metal or hair metal band at the time that was like free advertisement. So, my real name is "Luci" not really but you get the point. But Shan, be bigger. Be the human in the midst of people. Don't let their ignorance trigger your dysphoria. True though I have triggers but not what people think or say about me. Sometimes the dyphoria is so bad all I can do is cry and sleep. but it passes and I never let someone trigger it because I don't care how people see me. It is triggered in my own mind by my own thoughts. Maybe memories because that was part of it this time. But I have to live me. Other people have to live them and believe me I can find just as much wrong with them and it is usually far worst than being transgender. In the old forums there was a thread about arguing with idiots. You don't argue with idiots, You just keep coming back again and again at them and eventually their ignorance will shine through and then don't go in for the kill. Back off and show everyone who you really are. Even apologize for making the idiot sound so stupid. Wow I should have went to law school.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 0:58:29 GMT 8
Well as I have said so many times before I came into this through the side door so my dysphoria is very minimal as opposed to many others who have a real tough time struggling with it. Still I am sensitive enough to be able to commiserate with compassion and understanding.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 21:43:49 GMT 8
Well as I have said so many times before I came into this through the side door so my dysphoria is very minimal as opposed to many others who have a real tough time struggling with it. Still I am sensitive enough to be able to commiserate with compassion and understanding. Yeah Shan. I am extremely lucky in the dysphoria department myself. Oh it comes though and hits hard but it fades away. If it was a constant? I'm kind of afraid to even think about it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 22:58:39 GMT 8
Jamie, and Shan, You are both among the smartest people I know - Just saying. Julie Oh please, that's debatable sweetheart!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 23:54:19 GMT 8
I need to start saving articles to reference, because I can't back up any of these claims. Apparently the second chromosomal pair, either the extra x or the y, plays very little part in development. The Y chromosome has the DNA switch that turns on androgyne receptors in a developing fetus, which usually sends it down the path of developing male. Mutations in the second chromosome means that this is not always the case, you can have male bodied indivuduals with and XX pair and female bodied individuals with an XY pair - and this is completely ignoring individuals with an extra chromosome or a single chromosome. Given that the vast majority of people don't know their phenotype, if someone tells you that because you were coercively assigned male at birth, that you must be XY and therefore are unalterably male, is biological essentialism at its finest. So your DNA doesn't even absolutely determine your sex, so using it as a basis for determining someones gender is coercive at best and and act of out right aggression at worst - especially given how most people don't actually know their phenotype. So what about development and socialisation? Does that determine your sex? Well if you believe that chromosomes determine sex and gender, you can go down the route of believing that certain gendered behaviours are hardwired into the human brain and based on sex (which is based on chromosomes). Guess what... it's biological essentialism with a side order of neurosexism. So what about hormones? Given that XY individuals with CAIS develop down the typically female pathway, it's quite obvious that your endocrine system plays a big part in determining sex, especially secondary sexual characteristics, which in day to day life are the markers that we uses to determine someones sex. So far I've talked about sex, not gender, and already you can see the assumptions that we make about an individuals sex are as socially constructed as gender is. It's not that and individuals sex is socially constructed, but rather the assumptions that are made about someones sex based on how the look and what genitalia they have are. Now comes the fun part. Gender. I believe that gender is socially constructed, but that doesn't make it any less real than sex. I also believe that there is an interaction between the physical reality of your body and a subconscious expectation of the physical reality of your body. A mis-match between the two can cause physical dysphoria, it's not about behaviour or gender roles but rather something discrete and physical. Then you have gender roles and expectations, these can be both external and internalised, they are learned behaviours and very much come from societies definition of gender roles. Due to the wonders of neuroplasticity, if an individual is subjected to external gender roles and expectations, these get learned and the brain rewrites neural pathways so the appear to be innate traits. There's a kind of positive feed back loop at work here. If society deems certain traits and behaviours to be feminine, girls and women grow up believing those behaviours to be feminine, neural pathways are rewired so they appear to be innate behavioural traits, which is then seen as justification for believing the behaviour and trait to be feminine. and repeat... and repeat... You get the idea. Fortunately that very system gives us a way out of it, if we stop gendering certain behaviours and traits, and they'll stop being seen as being typical for a certain gender and yay, we've made progress. It also means that the idea that how you were socialised as a child has an indelible effect on your gender is just so much marsh gas. Socialisation is constantly overwritten, The system perceives certain genders in certain ways, and if you are percieved as that gender then you will get socialised in that gender. So even though gender roles are completely socially constructed, they do have a tangible effect on a persons gender, or the perception of their gender. So effectively you have two routes for dysphoria, one based on physicality and one based on social expectations of gender, both are valid, especially given that we live in a system with rigidly defined and policed gender norms and neither really have anything to do with your DNA or phenotype This article isn't the one I was looking for but it kind of backs up what i was saying about Chromosomes not absolutely determining sex www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 0:20:38 GMT 8
Jamie, and Shan, You are both among the smartest people I know - Just saying. Julie Oh please, that's debatable sweetheart!I agree with Shan on this one. Smart has never been dared to have been mentioned in the same breath as me. But maybe you're the smartest of us all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 0:24:07 GMT 8
All of that Dread Faery makes a whole lot of sense. And interesting. The whole perception of society when it comes to gender seems to be "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina" regardless of any other variables. Not even mentioning sex and or sexuality.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 0:34:53 GMT 8
All of that Dread Faery makes a whole lot of sense. And interesting. The whole perception of society when it comes to gender seems to be "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina" regardless of any other variables. Not even mentioning sex and or sexuality. Yes that is an exceptional post by Dread_Faery and let me add that most male and female behavior and attitudes are 95% learned through socialization and conformed to by familial and social expectations and is only 5% hormonally driven according to my endocrinologist.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 0:43:06 GMT 8
All of that Dread Faery makes a whole lot of sense. And interesting. The whole perception of society when it comes to gender seems to be "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina" regardless of any other variables. Not even mentioning sex and or sexuality. Yes that is an exceptional post by Dread_Faery and let me add that most male and female behavior and attitudes are 95% learned through socialization and conformed to by familial and social expectations and is only 5% hormonally driven according to my endocrinologist.That is wickedly strange when an endocrinologist tells you that. That is something to stand up and take heed to. Especially someone that is extremely knowledgeable in the hormonal factor. Socialization? Well it is kind of strange that all of my family members that were my age were girls. All the neighbors kids around me were girls that were the same age or close to it. All my male family members were so much older than me. So all the kids I had to play with when I was young were girls. So maybe the female socialization factor had a big effect on me along with some other things.
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