What is a woman? - Radfems and the TERF Perspective

[Ayla]

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

[Deleted]

OK Thumbs up for the article Aisla. But a big middle finger to these people. OK let me explain my views.

1. No one knows what other people suffer through. Really. You are a woman and have had to suffer being female for thirty two years? What the fuck does this person think I have done for 40 some odd years? She is the only one that has suffered. NEWSFLASH: We all suffer. I can tell you that men don't have it that good either. I got cut from my position for PLDC when I was in the Army because I was a white male and they had too many white males going through and they had to have more minority females. OK so I guess that is white male privilege? Right? OMG I hate the freakin' word Privilege. Well I got a little info. I wasn't really a white male. I was a white trans person even if my ID was female.

2. OK so these radfemmes. Do they have any freaking idea how many more in there numbers they would have if they honestly and emphatically embraced those of us that are MTF either binary or nonbinary. I think it's the "poor me" syndrome that they suffer. They either feel so insecure about their own femininity and are ashamed of it or they just wanna' have something to bitch about. Or maybe even an excuse.

3. So I am MTF nonbinary but MTF and closing in on the binary aspects slowly. Personally FTMs and FTM nonbinary or binaries, the male part of me is flattered that they wish to have some of the aspects that I have even though I don't care much for those same aspects of myself. So why would radical feminists not embrace us?

So why wouldn't they want to embrace us? That is a really interesting aspect of the equation. Personally I believe that we want to be female. We know we are trans but we embrace the feminine aspects and enjoy them. Do they really hate that part of themselves that bad. What if a woman wants to be feminine? They hate them just as much or it seems so anyway.

What is a woman. To me a woman is a female that displays and embraces female aspects whether secretly, partly or fully in the open. In the way a person thinks and experiences emotions. I don't believe it has nothing much to do with genetalia other than the hormones causing a conflict within. This can go for all of us that are trans. So to me it rally seems and I believe that some of these radical feminists are more trans but it manifests itself as jealousy, envy, rejection of their femininity and lying to themselves. But that is just my opinion though. I have no Idea what they really think but why be so cruel to others that just want to live their lives?

I know this sounds kind of crazy and I have to admit that I didn't read all of the article but it is known that Transwomen are kind of on their hit list of hate. But experience tells me that what we hate most about ourselves is what we hate most in others. Just like cheating in a relationship. The one that blames the other unfounded of cheating the most is usually the one that is cheating. It is a way of convincing one's self that their infidelity is justified.

Equal pay for the same job I definitely agree with. Equal opportunities I agree with. Hell I what I did forever a woman was just as good as a man at and got paid the same. SO really I guess you could say I am a feminist. But no way I could be a radical feminist. Hell I am trans after all so I doubt even if I did agree with them, they would accept me. So maybe its a god thing I don't agree with them.

But seriously though. Can one really hate themselves that much they have to transfer that hate onto others? I know the answer because I have seen gay bashers that turned out to be either gay or bi themselves.

[Deleted]

Apr 25, 2015 5:11:12 GMT 8 Ayla said:

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

Thirty years from now they'll all be dead and their concerns will become non issues.

[Sisyphus]

I don't think radfems are going to die out unless the way culture views gender radically changes. Someone new will go from child to thinker and will be exposed to one belief or another, one philosophy or another and some will go the route of radfem, just as some go the route of Wesboro...

[Ativan Prescribed]

History pivots on moments in time, it doesn't evolve.
I know this is true, because when we talk about the past, we usually talk about a time when something happened.

It would seem that transgender is about to become one of those times.
As it has been slowly coming up to the front, into the consciousness of society, history is pivoting around it right now.

Westboro has members ditching the family, the family is ditching the family, the consciousness of society has blocked them from the view of their protests.
TERF's are going through the same thing, they are dying out, not gaining any new members, their numbers dwindle.

As history pivots around this moment in time, consciousness is less about them and is now including transgender people.
Culture is changing right now, it is on the cusp of radically changing it's views about gender.
Bigotry is dying out as a voice, it is being replaced by rational thinking again.
People are realizing that the bigots never had anything to offer...
They shout louder, but nobody listens, they stomp their feet in protest and nobody cares if they do.

They are now going be seeing that trans people have always been a part of their lives and that it's not going to change.
Society is going to have to change, if it wants to see the truth, and it is done with the lies of the haters.
A radical shift is taking place, it's going to happen in some length of time that will be recalled as the moment.
History is pivoting around these moments, around this big change in how society is going to move forward.
History and life pivots around moments in time.
Ativan

[Ayla]

Ativan

I think that you have called it correctly. This is our time. Trans will not be hidden, and our reality will not be denied. Forces are aligning, the media, the politicians, the broader lgbt community and those who are trans sense that this is the moment. This feels good. It feels right. It is right.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Deleted]

Apr 26, 2015 10:23:17 GMT 8 Ativan Prescribed said:

History pivots on moments in time, it doesn't evolve.

A radical shift is taking place, it's going to happen in some length of time that will be recalled as the moment.
History is pivoting around these moments, around this big change in how society is going to move forward.
History and life pivots around moments in time.
Ativan

Astounding concept, I believe it's true. Excellent post!

[Sisyphus]

Apr 26, 2015 15:50:51 GMT 8 Ayla said:

Ativan

I think that you have called it correctly. This is our time. Trans will not be hidden, and our reality will not be denied. Forces are aligning, the media, the politicians, the broader lgbt community and those who are trans sense that this is the moment. This feels good. It feels right. It is right.

Safe travels

Aisla

These feel like song lyrics. Awesome song lyrics.

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2015 4:33:30 GMT 8 @dreadfaery said:

Second wave feminism has had it's time, it was radical in the 60/70s but is steeped in white, middle class cis privilege. It pushes biological and gender essentialism and the belief that there is a universal experience of being a woman. These people are extinct, they just haven't realised it yet.

Yup, we can only hope!

[Ayla]

Apr 28, 2015 4:33:30 GMT 8 @dreadfaery said:

Second wave feminism has had it's time, it was radical in the 60/70s but is steeped in white, middle class cis privilege. It pushes biological and gender essentialism and the belief that there is a universal experience of being a woman. These people are extinct, they just haven't realised it yet.

I can only agree.  Interestingly the feminist view that speaks to gender as a purely social construct is as triggering to me as the TERF mantra was.  They seem to completely ignore or trivialise the trans lived experience, dysphoria,  the impact of hormones and the reality of non binary identity.   Everything seems to be in motion and I hope that this also resolves itself as bio psvcho social research and paradigms gain greater currency and acceptance. 

safe travels

Aisla

[Ativan Prescribed]

There is much about gender that is a social construct, but it is not a purely type of thing.
A lot of people read parts of what is being said and it's easy to take it apart, but seen as a whole and from the direction it comes from, it's a very valid point.
If you're interested in it, take a look at it from a standpoint that is a few steps away from the center of controversy.
Much that is being said is very valid and makes sense, it verifies NB experience as well as others.
I have heard some radical views written about it, they seem to get more attention than necessary.
It's not that far away from what we have all been saying and coming to realize over the last couple or few years.
It comes from a different direction and it is more than just a simple viewpoint.
I've used it in discussions here several times and it seems to be agreeable, at least I never heard otherwise, so...
I've heard parts of it in conversations here without it being referenced to, as well as references to it, so it does seem to be compatible as far as I can tell.
It is something that I find worthy of discussion, I'd like to see it as more than a conceptual thing and be able to tie it into our experiences as NB.
It is, overall, a different way of looking at our world, so it is a concept. It allows for hard facts to be incorporated into it.
The idea itself has been around for a long time, it is just getting more attention lately, as it should.
A different perspective that is more flexible than it seems to be at first glance.

[Ayla]

DF

I agree, it is nuanced. It is most likely a combination of factors. A good discussion. Taking a single explanation which doesn't fit with all the facts but conforms to a single perspective, ideological or otherwise is rarely helpful


Safe travels

Aisla

[Deleted]

OK this is just my opinion but the perceptions of gender I don't believe are a social construct. I do however believe that the perceptions of gender being tied to the physical sex is a social construct. Hell I love femininity. I love feeling feminine. I would love to sexually, physical sexual aspects, be a woman. But I'm not but that doesn't mean I can't embrace femininity in the way of emotions and feelings. I mean hell, I was born this way so why not honor who I really am and embrace my own self and femininity. I really don't know what it means to be masculine. I can fake it but it is so over the top that I come across as a sleazy dickhead. How's that for Irony?

OK so I'm feminine. That is not a social construct. That is how I feel and really who I am. Believe me society didn't make me this way. I just go against society by being this way. This is a construct that is way deeper than society could ever influence me.

Personally I think radfems are more trans than they are willing to admit themselves. Hell I am jealous of women so why would a woman be jealous of men? HMMM. Interesting question and I think our brothers could probably answer that. I think they are more trans but deny themselves of that and it just makes them angry with their own femininity. Same way with gay bashers. People that hate transgenders and so on. Usually jealousy breeds hate. I don't care for being a man but I know who and what I am. Most of the time I kind of like who I am and what I am and embrace it.

So personally I believer that radical feminism is a social construct possibly related to the people being trans but refusing to accept that in themselves because of society's perception of transgenderism and the perception of gender being tied solely to physical sexual characteristics. What really pisses me off is that when we are children we are told to see people by what's on the inside. But we judge everyone by what they are outwardly.

[Deleted]

I'm kind of interested to see a real answer besides from the Radfems. So what is a woman? From those of us who feel and from those of us that were born and from everyone that understands without prejudice. For that matter, what is a man? Forget the activists. I want real answers from real people. Who the hell can even have the arrogance to decide how we should feel and who we should be?

[Sisyphus]

Can anyone understand without prejudice when we've all been born and raised in a society with beliefs established and evolved long before our parents parents were a wink in someone's eye? I personally find myself still unpeeling layers of those onions.

Is a woman a person born with a vagina, and a clitoris like a pearl? A uterus? Breasts? XX? A person with a propensity towards dresses and makeup, a person whose mannerisms resemble delicacy and small or eloquent movements? A person who communicates a lot, or is more emotional? Intuitive and irrational? A person who is complex? A person who has to resort to poison if they wanted to hurt someone? A person who is submissive? A person who is perceived as a woman? A person who is oppressed and though less of because of their assigned or assumed space in the gender hierarchy? A person with a certain set of assigned behavioral and outward expression (which change from culture to culture or time to time)? Or a person with a certain set of visible biology?

Is a man a person born with a penis or certain size and shape? Testicles? A certain type of chest? A certain distrbution of body hair? XY? A person with propensity towards jeans and flannel, suits and ties, a person whos mannerisms resemble aggression, strenght or control? A person who communicates less and is not emotional? A person who is logical and non-intuitive? A person who is simple and easy to understand? A person who hunts and gathers and earns money? A person who could beat your face in or smash a spider or move heavy objects if they so desired? A person who is perceived as a man? A person who has hierarchical power and is part of a group that is valued as long as the devalue (through benevolence or not) the opposite group? A person with a certain set of assigned behavioral and outward expression (which change from culture to culture or time to time)? Or a person with a certain set of visible biology?

Do we match the boxes that exist with a little bit of tweaking and acceptance? Are we who we are and trying to fit it into the boxes we've been given? Does the language serve us or is it a form of chains to keep us maintaining hierachies? Or does it do both as we move through the structures that people have been trying to change but have been built before we were born and maintained by people comforted by it? Do we find comfort in it even as we are distressed by it?

I guess when I try to contribute, rather than having an answer, all I have are more questions.