Gender free society

[danishcouple]

I was thinking how should it be if we have a gander free society?
Should we have than totally freedom with out discrimination?

[Leena]

I don't know that I even want this to happen, but also really don't think this is going to ever happen. Some people are very invested in the binary, mostly cis people, but also some trans people.

If there was a gender free society, there would eventually be new standards of how how everyone should look and act, and I don't know that I'd like them any more than the current ones. I think it would lead to less freedom and everyone would be expected to be the same, and likely mostly how men are currently expected to be.

[Ativan Prescribed]

It's always been slowly moving in that direction and goes slightly faster all the time, as people become more aware of gender being a social construct and not some biological function or has nothing to do with mostly anything but trashing half of the people because it makes the other half feel better and gives them limited power, its just an evolution thing that it is going to be fairly meaningless and far as any gander being better than another, it slowly getting better because people are just more aware, it stalls only because the die hards are not dyeing off fast enough or refusing to even consider that gender is about as useful as a trump being president.
Fashion is always trying to do the genderless thing and always has one way or another, but without the gender binary, it not only opens up new and better ideas, and isn't so locked into the way it is today, there is very little that is even changed in the last hundred years because they have run out of meaningful ideas, its all fluff and contrived.

[Trinity]

I don't think discrimination and binarism go hand in hand.

I have plenty of very strong men who would rip someone apart if they were to come after me or try to hurt me.

Far from disapproving, they think its cool, and strong.

But also there are plenty of either insecure or bigotted men that want to enforce the binary and are very cruel about it. Those folk will never go away, in my opinion.

I have no issues with the traditional binary relational life, as long as they leave my own life alone.

Live and let live. And have a strong defense if someone decides not to let you live.

The binary is very strong where I live. But along with that is this kind of protective thing, they get to know you, they become allies, and it gets really neat. Especially if you start talking guns and horsepower, then its like this badass transperson thing that they are just having fun talking too and looks nice, I've recently had some very positive experiences that way.

I don't thing gender is going anywhere, but I think there will be less discrimination.

[Ativan Prescribed]

There will be and always is less discrimination the more it is not an issue for people, its like that for all discrimination regardless, discrimination is a very pointed thing that makes people not only look stupid, but makes them do stupid things.
And yet you can't fix stupid, you can only deal with it, the people who are stupid have to realize for themselves just how stupid they are, you can't tell them, they are too stupid to believe you.

[Leena]

Nov 26, 2021 9:45:50 GMT 8 Trinity said:

But also there are plenty of either insecure or bigotted men that want to enforce the binary and are very cruel about it. Those folk will never go away, in my opinion.

There are also plenty of women that also want to enforce the binary. They just tend to enforce it in different ways. I don't think they will totally go away either.

[danishcouple]

I'm not a believer, but most gender and lhbti discrimination comes out of different churches with their believe.
But i have read the bible but in sid there's nothing written about gender and lhbti but where come it from
that people who beliefe are against gender and lhbti?

Gender, male and female was introduced by Napoleon beacause Napoleon wanted to know how many humans there was, and to simplify this his helpers
selected them in two groups, man and women.

So gender and male/female isn't that old as they wanted to let knowing us, so recent history like this can also be erasured and replaced by history what is older so they can erase male and female and gender and talk about human beeeinig and not specifi.

[Ativan Prescribed]

In the minds of the least literate of bible scholars, as in never read the bible, the people who quote things from the bible are always taking things out of context and you can make a case for virtually anything you want if taken out of the context it was written in.
The bible is one big huge contradiction from the beginning to the end and the old testament is filled with just the stories of the time to use as examples, if you think they are the word of god and written by god, then by gawd you are a fool, the bible is an overall view of many people who like to think they know what god is saying, when really god has very little to say because he just doesn't need to, they are a god, the god if you want, I seriously don't think they sat down with a charred burnt stick and wrote this all out on a rock as in the beginning...
Puting the stuff into context of the times they were passing these stories around, I'm sure they made a lot more sense to uneducated people during those times and after being told and retold, have been warped long out of the range they were intended for and warped into the range of when someone actually wrote them down, but remember, they hadn't invented the printing press just then and it took people sitting their lifetimes copying them again and again just to have a few to pass around and how many people could read anyways?
Good stories and they make a point, but it is far from the be all and end all of what god wanted us to know, we are still writing the ending and always will.
Read the first edition of the new new testament....
Just because someone took the time to put something in writing doesn't make it any truer than if they never did at all.
I saw it on FaceBook and its all over social media and here there and everywhere people are saying, or not.
Greatest word of belief I ever spoke was I believe I'll have another beer.

[Trinity]

We know here I am a person of deep faith in Christianity and won't let those who don't understand me take that away from me (not talking about anyone on the forum here).

That being said, I focus on the love theme. New testament radical love. And a lot of other things as well.

The rest of this part, I will leave alone.

Its about the heart. Bigotry is not cool.

[kid]

I don't think binarity has to be linked to christianity or discrimination. There can be religion with or without gender-based discrimination, there can be binary folks who are very understanding of non-binary folks.

I long for a society... Come with me to an imaginary place, where gender means nothing.

No bodies would be "male bodies" or "female bodies". All would be "human bodies". If there was a need for specifics, we could say it was a body with or without vulva, penis, comfortable soft tummy, gracious hands, ample bosom, hair, long feet... whatever feels the most descriptive and fitting to give an impression. No ready-made thoughts as to categories of bodies or what they "should" look like.
Every person would be in their body and have this experience of a body without any outside expectations as to how they should socially act or who they are bound to become.

As to intimacy preferences, each and every person is free to create their own categories, such as "I like people with soft skin and huge hands", or "I like people with any sort of penis and who exhale determination", or whatever they do like ! To me it would be : I often feel attracted to people with touchable hair, who are compassionate and have interesting conversations ! This makes me want to share intimacy with them.

The identity would also be something that each and every person creates in their unique way and are free to share with the world.
This means that a person could base their identity on "I'm very clumsy and I want a lifelong partner", or "I love Nutella", "I am a trustworthy engineer". It would be clear to every body that the link between this identity and the person's body is an intricate one, not expected to be straightforward. It would be clear that a lot of unknown info is coming into play around these notions. Identity is a personal experience based on many many other personal experiences, thoughts, feelings, values, concepts, and of course personal categories.

People could compare it to their own categories (oh yeah, lot of Taurus people love Nutella) or not, anyway they would stay open-minded about this person who is different and may not fit into their categories.
That's the idea : people would ALL understand that categories are meant to make the thinking easy and quick but they can be traps because they sometimes close-off or segment a reality that can be a bigger, much more nuanced picture.
While we are in my own imaginary world, I'll add that there would be the same pattern of open-mindedness and acceptance about skin-color, all body-features, and physical and mental handicaps, even about health. And just about every subject that can be personal to somebody.

Whenever somebody says "Haha, a society without gender, I don't see THIS existing any soon", I feel pain because it is a dream very dear to me. I do think it would be wonderful and we should strive for this. It's not a destination, it's a direction. Bashful comments just mean that the person saying it doesn't care much. It makes me feel alone.

------------------------------------------------------

Now let's get back to reality. Real-life people looove their closed categories and as they feel comfortable with not spending much thought about their environment, they confuse their categories for reality and get "offended" when a person reminds them that the world is bigger. It's really tough to change anything. Even if we get Darcy to acknowledge that "a boy can like pink and be sensitive", Darcy will still think in a binary and expect some things from the males he encounters --> it is manageable to change a little part of people's beliefs but a lot of them will not allow their most fundamental categories to be put in question. The only way to act is then to listen and find their comfort zone and its limits so that we can make them comfortable with more and more different experiences. (I am a very peaceful being, I think conflict even hidden as "debate", is not very helpful either short-term or long-term. A helpful debate allows listening, pauses, reflecting, falling short of arguments on something, laughing etc. It is obvious that it asks for much more patience and resilience from us, the minority.)
Anyway, I think non-binary people have a chance to be accepted although it's a daunting task to undertake. And I think this might be the first step to engage : be accepted. To the binary-folks-who-change-their-thoughts-as-little-as-they-possibly-can, we would be kind of "a third category" and they would probably still think we're a little weird but as they get to know us they would finally get it step by step, and if they are friend to one of us, they would eventually begin to be allies and defend us.
The step after if we ever get there would be to have them accept that any person, with any body features, can become anything.
And finally it would be time to give one last push, introducing the fact that the binary is totally irrelevant to many things and sharing with them about original categories, without a care for the binary ones.
I am now talking about gender-binary, and a society without gender could still be racist for instance, or even create new stupid discriminations such as : people with big ears are often lunatics. Society is full of those sideslips that end up as centuries-old patterns causing hurts and deaths, so I don't expect to live in a dream-world anytime at all. I still want to push in the directions I love, making my part of the job, hoping that others do the same and that we have our own little impact.

I might add that I didn't talk about children (how to raise them, with or without gender, how to talk to them). Children can be a great propaganda tool, seeing as they are very open-minded and learn fast, any environment in which they grow will teach them how to interact with the world. I personally think that children are people and should be treated as such. So, pretty much all I said before can be applied to them. We should respect them, allow and support them to be what they feel like. Accept that their beliefs can be different from ours. If we want to share something and they don't hear it, it is good to listen, to figure where they stand and what their comfort zone is made out of before we decide what to share and how to share it. Controversial, but yeah I don't think children are idiots or pets, I think they are actual persons and usually fast-thinking ones at that.

[Ativan Prescribed]

Because gender is a social construct, people will always think of theirs as the correct construct, the difficulty comes up as they want to enforce their construct on everyone else.
Being NB isn't about changing others minds to accept their views, its about having respect for your own values and the construct that you have.
NB has always been around as well as all other constructs have always been around, and it has slowly been a construct of less discrimination and one that is evolving into one of acceptance.
I've been around for 70 yrs now and have seen how it has evolved, the ones who discriminate are changing and of course there are those who are total holdouts in thinking their way of living in their construct is the only way.
But because discrimination has evolved into a political thing, its easy to say things like all republicans discriminate against LGBTQ as well as being racist, but most of that is the poor choices they made in voting in their republican lawmakers.
They rally behind their poor choices because they interpret it as they are right, but its a far bigger minority of total bigots and racists than those who are accepting, what it comes down to is simple respect for people and their lives, their personal freedoms and liberties.
Republicans have been on this morality bandwagon for a long long time, they have developed over the years this thing about their personal views as the correct view without taking into account that they are the ones just barely being tolerated.
But tolerance to them is a fairly one sided argument, they are right and everyone else is wrong, period, you are either with or against and they demand that their views be respected and at the same time disrespect all other views, its now political.
By voting them out of power to a large extent is the only way to change the discourse from political to personal beliefs, once this is done their own levels of discrimination will be less and less over the years, and so long as politicians can't use discrimination and racism as a way of gathering votes, the less of them there will be who rely of this blatant disrespect of people, they will have no other options but to seek idealism instead.
Take away the power to use politics as a weapon and bigotry and racism loses its only weapon, reality sets in and the realization that being sheer asshole is not a way to go through life.
They are losing to the point that they are now going into the schools in an attempt to stabilize their agenda of hate, its not working.
You tell kids that they have to be this and that and they will question and seek out the answers on their own, book banning just makes them look elsewhere, like the internet, which republicans really really want to regulate for their sole benefit.
Its propaganda that they use and want to regulate, take that away and they have nothing, because its a lot easier for people look away from hate and look towards the rewards of love and acceptance.
Hate relies on the use of propaganda to gather itself up, some people are just overwhelmed by it and read into it as this is how the world works, they are the same people who are fooled by any old snake oil salesman who comes along, they will believe anything that confirms the construct of life and use that old pitch to inflict hatred, its always the same old thing and just variations on a theme that all people who hate use all the time, taking away the use of that by voting republicans out of office is just the best way, but not the only way.
Its like this, call a bigot a bigot and their tune changes to a defense that they are not a bigot, the same works on racists, the same works on fascists, call em out and don't argue with them, call them out and walk away, there is no debate or arguing with them, they simply have to learn that they are the bottom of the barrel, that they are the minority, that they are the ones who have to change because the rest of the people accept each other in respectful ways already.
The old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink applies here with people who lack a thirst for honesty and respect.