Droomvlucht's introduction

[Droomvlucht]

Wow it's been a while since I registered, only now I saw that my account was approved... But here I am!

I'm Droomvlucht and I live in the Netherlands. I may or may not be non-binary, so that's why I am here, to meet other people with maybe the same doubts and the same (or other) thoughts about their gender identity.

Looking forward to meet you!

[Leena]

Welcome to the forum, Droomvlucht!

[Iona]

Hello droomvlucht, and welcome to the forum - its great to have you here!

[Trinity]

Welcome

[Droomvlucht]

Feb 3, 2021 4:48:32 GMT 8 Leena said:

Welcome to the forum, Droomvlucht!

Feb 3, 2021 5:05:45 GMT 8 Iona said:

Hello droomvlucht, and welcome to the forum - its great to have you here!

Feb 3, 2021 6:57:09 GMT 8 Trinity said:

Welcome

Thank you all! 

[Droomvlucht]

Okay, so I have got some time to describe some of the thoughts I have. Maybe some are recognisable for others, I'd like to know.

There are days/weeks when I'm doubting and doubting and my thoughts are going like this:
- Maybe I am non-binary. But what if I really am, what should I do? I don't want to lose my wife. I don't even want to confuse or hurt her. I confuse and hurt her if I am non-binary. So I just shouldn't be. And maybe I am not, because:
- it's just an American way to view gender (sorry if you're from the USA, I don't mean it mean, I just think this to try to comfort myself)
- I mostly doubt about it when I have other stress. So maybe it's a way to not think about other stuff.
- I am too feminine to be. My voice is too high, my hair too long, I am too scared of stuff, I don't have any muscles and I can't do carpenter stuff ('like real man should' hahaha)
- Maybe I am doubting about this because I am so privilaged. Surely I wouldn't think about this when I would have serious other problems, like with my health or money.
- My parents would never understand.
- Non-binary persons seem so unhappy often (this is based on random photos I've seen on instagram). Are they unhappy because they are non-binary or does it work the other way round as well: is it because I feel unhappy that I think I am non-binary? But I don't feel unhappy most of the times (but at those times I'm not worrying about my gender. So I should quit that.)
- I really would like to have short hair. I don't dare to do this (hairdressers are closed now anyway, so maybe this is a problem for later).
- I never felt happier than in the dreams where I was a boy/man.
- My favourite clothes are the clothes that are actually for man.
- I can't buy the clothes I like most because they don't fit my body. I feel like most non-binary persons are dressed in quite an alternative way and I don't like those clothes for myself to wear. How can I ever feel more like myself when my body ensures that I can't wear the clothes I like?
- Maybe I'm just seeking attention.

And then when I feel better it goes like this:
- it's just a concept that is necessary because in this society the box 'woman' and 'man' are so strict. If only people would (or: I would) get rid of the strict prejudices how man and woman are then I could also be a woman. I need to broaden my view on the concept woman and then I'd be okay.
- Focus on the things I should worry about in stead of worrying about this.
- Focus on the good things. There are so many good things.
- It doesn't really matter anyway. It's my gender, that's so personal, I don't even need a coming out. I can do what I want, there's no need to tell people.
(but sometimes I feel so lonely and I'm just a very talkative person that needs to share stuff, so this never seems to work forever)

[Trinity]

There is so much in your post to think through and unpack, it's quite a lot of information and all good that you ask.

From the writings you have, I have no idea what your physical sex is, which is cool and rather nonbinary by itself. So don't tell me lol.

But those to me are valid thoughts, do I think them? No, but that's just me. I like what you said in the "Feel Better paragraph. Its so right on.

The old saying when worrying about it is: "Just be".

Feel the feelings, and just be you. Unless you make major changes, there are no real consequences to just exploring who you are. Once you know who you are, you can do whatever you want, knowing what the effects will be.

It's a great place to be. Its the joy of discovering your truth.

[Ativan Prescribed]

You have stepped on to that path where you need to find your truths, whatever they might be, its a long journey and most people fail to even take that first step, those are the people who are fine with letting others tell them who and what they are.
NB is a very very broad term and one of the biggest mistakes you can make is trying to be like someone else, you are an individual and its up to you and its your business only what you think of your gender.
You can keep it to yourself, just like you keep so many things to yourself.
You can come on here and talk all you want about it, we share our experience but we also don't tell you how you should be, other than just be yourself, and stepping further along your path to finding your truth, we don't know what that is, only you do.
You certainly can expand the boxes you check to make them fit you, or you can step outside the both and discover the world from that different vantage point, but the bottom line is always going to be finding your truths whatever they might be.
If NB isn't for you, you're still welcome to come and discuss things NB and just hang out if thats what you want, but knowing that others here are NB and if that feels right to you, then welcome to the forum.
Regardless, if we can help you find your truth by relating our experience to what you question, if in any way we can help with your truths about yourself, we are here to help you, or if you just want to hang with NB like people, thats just fine as well.

[Droomvlucht]

Feb 4, 2021 8:25:53 GMT 8 Trinity said:

There is so much in your post to think through and unpack, it's quite a lot of information and all good that you ask.

From the writings you have, I have no idea what your physical sex is, which is cool and rather nonbinary by itself. So don't tell me lol.

But those to me are valid thoughts, do I think them? No, but that's just me. I like what you said in the "Feel Better paragraph. Its so right on.

The old saying when worrying about it is: "Just be".

Feel the feelings, and just be you. Unless you make major changes, there are no real consequences to just exploring who you are. Once you know who you are, you can do whatever you want, knowing what the effects will be.

It's a great place to be. Its the joy of discovering your truth.

I really like the 'just be'-saying, I think that's what I do most of the time, actually. Although at the same time I am really trying to be gender conforming and there are some things I'd like to change, like getting my hair cut short. That is a major change for me, though I obviously understand that a person can do way more majorer changes like starting with hormones or a top surgery. But I always, always have had long hair. Because that's what girls have and later because it felt safer. I am afraid of reactions of other people. But maybe that's an outdated argument. When I was younger I would go with my wife in town or on holiday to another town and everyone would think we were just two friends (I couldn't keep the mystery going on Trinity, unfortunately, my physical sex will be clear with you right now ). If we, or one of us, really looked 'like a lesbian', we would have met much more negative reactions. But now I think: so what if I look like a lesbian? I am a lesbian. Or at least: I live a lesbian life. Or at least: why present as a cis hetero woman when I am not? I have a wife and two children, there's not much to hide anymore? The children are yelling 'mama' all the time anyway to both of us. 

Feb 4, 2021 11:58:15 GMT 8 Ativan Prescribed said:

You have stepped on to that path where you need to find your truths, whatever they might be, its a long journey and most people fail to even take that first step, those are the people who are fine with letting others tell them who and what they are.
NB is a very very broad term and one of the biggest mistakes you can make is trying to be like someone else, you are an individual and its up to you and its your business only what you think of your gender.
You can keep it to yourself, just like you keep so many things to yourself.
You can come on here and talk all you want about it, we share our experience but we also don't tell you how you should be, other than just be yourself, and stepping further along your path to finding your truth, we don't know what that is, only you do.
You certainly can expand the boxes you check to make them fit you, or you can step outside the both and discover the world from that different vantage point, but the bottom line is always going to be finding your truths whatever they might be.
If NB isn't for you, you're still welcome to come and discuss things NB and just hang out if thats what you want, but knowing that others here are NB and if that feels right to you, then welcome to the forum.
Regardless, if we can help you find your truth by relating our experience to what you question, if in any way we can help with your truths about yourself, we are here to help you, or if you just want to hang with NB like people, thats just fine as well.

That's a kind response. It does feels great to be here. It's giving me a headache and is making me tired too, I have got so many thoughts, I could make such a list as I did yesterday with totally different ones and each one of them would be as true. It really was hard that I had to wait nearly a month to get my account approved (I guess the person who does that was on holiday or something went wrong), I read a lot of posts and wanted to say: I recognise this! or: What a good advice! and I couldn't. And then I tried another forum but didn't really feel fit in and then I saw that in the meantime this account was approved, I had just stopped checking that mailbox, and then I came back here and felt welcome  

[Trinity]

Feb 4, 2021 16:08:06 GMT 8 Droomvlucht said:

Feb 4, 2021 8:25:53 GMT 8 Trinity said:

There is so much in your post to think through and unpack, it's quite a lot of information and all good that you ask.

From the writings you have, I have no idea what your physical sex is, which is cool and rather nonbinary by itself. So don't tell me lol.

But those to me are valid thoughts, do I think them? No, but that's just me. I like what you said in the "Feel Better paragraph. Its so right on.

The old saying when worrying about it is: "Just be".

Feel the feelings, and just be you. Unless you make major changes, there are no real consequences to just exploring who you are. Once you know who you are, you can do whatever you want, knowing what the effects will be.

It's a great place to be. Its the joy of discovering your truth.

I really like the 'just be'-saying, I think that's what I do most of the time, actually. Although at the same time I am really trying to be gender conforming and there are some things I'd like to change, like getting my hair cut short. That is a major change for me, though I obviously understand that a person can do way more majorer changes like starting with hormones or a top surgery. But I always, always have had long hair. Because that's what girls have and later because it felt safer. I am afraid of reactions of other people. But maybe that's an outdated argument. When I was younger I would go with my wife in town or on holiday to another town and everyone would think we were just two friends (I couldn't keep the mystery going on Trinity, unfortunately, my physical sex will be clear with you right now ). If we, or one of us, really looked 'like a lesbian', we would have met much more negative reactions. But now I think: so what if I look like a lesbian? I am a lesbian. Or at least: I live a lesbian life. Or at least: why present as a cis hetero woman when I am not? I have a wife and two children, there's not much to hide anymore? The children are yelling 'mama' all the time anyway to both of us. 

Feb 4, 2021 11:58:15 GMT 8 Ativan Prescribed said:

You have stepped on to that path where you need to find your truths, whatever they might be, its a long journey and most people fail to even take that first step, those are the people who are fine with letting others tell them who and what they are.
NB is a very very broad term and one of the biggest mistakes you can make is trying to be like someone else, you are an individual and its up to you and its your business only what you think of your gender.
You can keep it to yourself, just like you keep so many things to yourself.
You can come on here and talk all you want about it, we share our experience but we also don't tell you how you should be, other than just be yourself, and stepping further along your path to finding your truth, we don't know what that is, only you do.
You certainly can expand the boxes you check to make them fit you, or you can step outside the both and discover the world from that different vantage point, but the bottom line is always going to be finding your truths whatever they might be.
If NB isn't for you, you're still welcome to come and discuss things NB and just hang out if thats what you want, but knowing that others here are NB and if that feels right to you, then welcome to the forum.
Regardless, if we can help you find your truth by relating our experience to what you question, if in any way we can help with your truths about yourself, we are here to help you, or if you just want to hang with NB like people, thats just fine as well.

That's a kind response. It does feels great to be here. It's giving me a headache and is making me tired too, I have got so many thoughts, I could make such a list as I did yesterday with totally different ones and each one of them would be as true. It really was hard that I had to wait nearly a month to get my account approved (I guess the person who does that was on holiday or something went wrong), I read a lot of posts and wanted to say: I recognise this! or: What a good advice! and I couldn't. And then I tried another forum but didn't really feel fit in and then I saw that in the meantime this account was approved, I had just stopped checking that mailbox, and then I came back here and felt welcome  

Maybe we can help the Admin with that, we'll find out.  They may not have the support they need for backup if they are off.

[nyx]

Feb 3, 2021 17:58:53 GMT 8 Droomvlucht said:

Okay, so I have got some time to describe some of the thoughts I have. Maybe some are recognisable for others, I'd like to know.

There are days/weeks when I'm doubting and doubting and my thoughts are going like this:
- Maybe I am non-binary. But what if I really am, what should I do? I don't want to lose my wife. I don't even want to confuse or hurt her. I confuse and hurt her if I am non-binary. So I just shouldn't be. And maybe I am not, because:
- it's just an American way to view gender (sorry if you're from the USA, I don't mean it mean, I just think this to try to comfort myself)
- I mostly doubt about it when I have other stress. So maybe it's a way to not think about other stuff.
- I am too feminine to be. My voice is too high, my hair too long, I am too scared of stuff, I don't have any muscles and I can't do carpenter stuff ('like real man should' hahaha)
- Maybe I am doubting about this because I am so privilaged. Surely I wouldn't think about this when I would have serious other problems, like with my health or money.
- My parents would never understand.
- Non-binary persons seem so unhappy often (this is based on random photos I've seen on instagram). Are they unhappy because they are non-binary or does it work the other way round as well: is it because I feel unhappy that I think I am non-binary? But I don't feel unhappy most of the times (but at those times I'm not worrying about my gender. So I should quit that.)
- I really would like to have short hair. I don't dare to do this (hairdressers are closed now anyway, so maybe this is a problem for later).
- I never felt happier than in the dreams where I was a boy/man.
- My favourite clothes are the clothes that are actually for man.
- I can't buy the clothes I like most because they don't fit my body. I feel like most non-binary persons are dressed in quite an alternative way and I don't like those clothes for myself to wear. How can I ever feel more like myself when my body ensures that I can't wear the clothes I like?
- Maybe I'm just seeking attention.

And then when I feel better it goes like this:
- it's just a concept that is necessary because in this society the box 'woman' and 'man' are so strict. If only people would (or: I would) get rid of the strict prejudices how man and woman are then I could also be a woman. I need to broaden my view on the concept woman and then I'd be okay.
- Focus on the things I should worry about in stead of worrying about this.
- Focus on the good things. There are so many good things.
- It doesn't really matter anyway. It's my gender, that's so personal, I don't even need a coming out. I can do what I want, there's no need to tell people.
(but sometimes I feel so lonely and I'm just a very talkative person that needs to share stuff, so this never seems to work forever)

Many of the thoughts you decribe here seem very similar to my experiences. I'll try to comment on some of the points, but remember that these are just my very specific personal understandings.

It is interesting to me that the haircut seems to be a big deal for you - I had my hair cut off two years ago because I always wanted to have short hair but thought it would look bad on me because I have a very rounded face and thought I'd look like a pancake without any hair framing my face - a very ridiculous fear, it turned out. I think I look so much better now, lol! Funny thing is, I would never have thought it would make me look like a lesbian. Maybe because I am in a relationship with a cis man? Anyways, I think other people don't think automatically 'short hair = lesbian'. And even if, look, when I'm outside and my partner isn't with me, they might think the same about me but in the end they won't know and it is none of their business anyway.

About the 'what if I am really nonbinary'-thought: I felt and sometimes still feel the same. When in doubt-mood, I think I'm making my life more complicated by spending thoughts on gender. Why can't I be just 'normal'? Wouldn't it be easier to forget about nonbinary and retreat to... well, where are we going then? When being honest with myself, there hasn't been a time in my life that was perfectly easy and simple.

And with my partner, it's the same: we've been through the hardest times together. We will also manage this. I know I am lucky to have such an understanding and supportive partner. But it is hard on him, too. He saw me doing research on HRT and top surgery and stuff... asked me if I was considering these things. I told him I don't know yet. He says he can't guarantee to be 100% loving it. He will support me and I can do what I want, but he told me that he is not sure what this would to to his attraction to me. He thinks he prefers feminine bodies and what can I say against it? Nobody choses their preferences. So we will have to see how things become..

I am actually quite feminine, too, but I think being nonbinary doesn't mean you have to be less feminine. To me, this is not contradictory. I always imagined how my life would have been if I was raised as a boy and to be honest, I imagined to be a very feminine boy. I have short hair, hate make-up but love dresses. Sometimes. There are days I don't like dresses and prefer large men's clothes that hide my curves. I love to cook and my laughter is that of a big hairy filthy drunken pirate. And when I think about it, nothing of these things is really gender-related: dresses, make-up, cooking, mad laughter, you will find people of all genders who are like this or not.

The thought about privileges is interesting, too. I had similar thoughts, like maybe it's a luxury problem? I mean, yes, maybe I'd stop worrying about my gender identity if I were living in a war zone because I'd have to look for mere survival first. But when I told a friend about it, she said this no luxury problem at all. And she was right. It is easy to find things that could be worse in life - but it doesn't change the fact that our personal problems are hard on us, it doesn't make any sense to compare suffering as if you'd need to have a certain level of shittyness in your life to gain the right to feel bad about it. And as far my experience goes, feeling insecure about your gender can give you actually quite shitty times. Like worrying how loved ones will react, fear of discrimination (which is, too, always a bad thing, no matter what you are discriminated for), general fear of changes in life. I think a big part of accepting ourselves is understanding that these fears are ok to have.

Parents... yeah, big mystery to me. I think my mother is a really cool person, she doesn't tell me how to live my life and she doesn't mind my brother wearing make-up (he identifies as androgynous male), she never forbid us things like drugs (but we weren't interested in trying them, lol. my only weakness is for drinks) so in many cases, she is very open-minded. BUT, she will never get the whole gender thing. It's useless. But I think we will get by, I am old enough to not make this dependant on her approval. It is not easy for me to see it this way, but I know I have to if I want to find my way through all of this.

I really don't think nonbinary people are less happy than binary people. Maybe they seem to be because society makes it sometimes frustrating to be 'different'. Maybe they are having a hard time because they often find themselves somewhere in between the communities - if you're nb you might be too trans to feel comfortable among cis people but not trans enough to fit in some trans communities. This is why I think it is awesome to have this nb community here.


Clothing is really a thing that bothers me sometimes. Being overweight makes it hard to find good stuff already, but if you want to look a bit androgynous or tomboyish, it is so bad. I can't wear men's shirts that are a bit more fashionable because to have them fit around my waist and hips they have to be HUGE and then, they are too large around chest and shoulders. Basic stuff works ok for me, but I wouldn't want to wear sporty stuff at work so I usually wear women's clothes there. But I think I just have to try harder to find a good style for my don't-want-to-look-feminine days. I think I want to look for some acceptable trousers (I am fat so I hate trousers, leggings and skirts are my friends, lol) and unisex-looking shirts. So I'll share my results when the stores are open again... 

Wee, I've written too much. But what I wanted to show (don't know if succeeded) is that to many of your thoughts, there are lots of different possible ways to look at them. To find your truth, you might need to try different ways of thinking until you find out what makes you feel better. At least, this is what I think...

-Nyx

[Droomvlucht]

Feb 4, 2021 23:02:24 GMT 8 nyx said:

Wee, I've written too much. But what I wanted to show (don't know if succeeded) is that to many of your thoughts, there are lots of different possible ways to look at them. To find your truth, you might need to try different ways of thinking until you find out what makes you feel better. At least, this is what I think...

-Nyx

Thank you! Especially for what you wrote about the luxury problem.

I'd love to see the results when you found nice clothes suitable for work. I wear checked blouses (? I used Google translate for this... Ruitjesblousjes) and jackets a lot. But I see so many nice sweaters for men and they wouldn't fit me or I'd feel uncomfortable because it would accentuate parts of my body I don't like to be accentuated. And skinny jeans but I'd like to try something else. I'm not sure if we can give each other good advice here though because I'm underweight. (I've had an eating disorder and there are a lot of reasons for that but one of them was that I just didn't want to get the body of a woman, I'm afraid).

[Leena]

I had a lot of doubts, some similar to yours, some not. I took things very slowly because of this, but over time I worked through most of my doubts. This forum has really helped.

It took a long time and a lot of experimentation to get to where I am comfortable presenting how I wanted in public. I'm still not all that comfortable talking about non binary an trans stuff in person, but I find I don't really have to often. I was expecting I'd have to but no one seems to care or even notice.

My family is not accepting, and is likely going to react negatively if and when I tell them I'm on HRT. I'm pretty sure they'll notice if and when I ever see them again. I never really came out to my dad, and I'm at peace with that.

I can see how one can get the impression that nonbinary people are often unhappy from places like this, but for me at least, I was far more unhappy when I was trying to live as a guy.

[Droomvlucht]

Feb 5, 2021 3:28:36 GMT 8 Leena said:

I had a lot of doubts, some similar to yours, some not. I took things very slowly because of this, but over time I worked through most of my doubts. This forum has really helped.

It took a long time and a lot of experimentation to get to where I am comfortable presenting how I wanted in public. I'm still not all that comfortable talking about non binary an trans stuff in person, but I find I don't really have to often. I was expecting I'd have to but no one seems to care or even notice.

My family is not accepting, and is likely going to react negatively if and when I tell them I'm on HRT. I'm pretty sure they'll notice if and when I ever see them again. I never really came out to my dad, and I'm at peace with that.

I can see how one can get the impression that nonbinary people are often unhappy from places like this, but for me at least, I was far more unhappy when I was trying to live as a guy.

Sorry to hear your family is not accepting you

Your last sentence, that's definitely true I guess!

[Droomvlucht]

nonbinary.proboards.com/thread/6/genderqueer-non-binary

This thread made me wondering... Maybe it would be correcter to call myself genderqueer?
But that word is not really used in the Netherlands, only as a really political/academic term, not really to describe your gender identity. At least, as far as I know, but I'm not a really active member of the lgbt+-community (like: I never went to parties or bars or something like that for lgbt's, almost all of my friends are cis-gendered and hetero and so on), maybe it is more common there, I wouldn't know.