Germany law situation and how it's going wrong

[Tornait]

This will likely not have any impact on most of you, but I need to let steam off somewhere as the government has reached a new height of stupidity.

First there was a court rule forcing the government to set down a law that would allow people to have a positive non-binary gender entry on legal documents – so far the only options are “male”, “female” or leaving it blank, but the later is not a positive entry and more a way of not stating anything. By court rule, this was discrimination of people who don't express themselves as male/female. They have until the end of this year to set the law.

The idea itself sparked great discussion about the impact a third gender might have on speech. People complained that “they can't go out of their way for every special snowflake”, argued where this might end. Part of the problem here being that there is no neutral pronoun to use and no one really wanted to go to the length of invention one or take this as a reason to overhaul the whole binary system. Especially not after we just had a similar discourse with feminists demanding that woman be recognized too instead of using the “generic masculin” (that's when you use a male pronoun to refer to a big group of people not necessary all male, like teachers, doctors ec.)

The law they put down now is a small step, but going in a wrong direction even in the first draft.
Basically it stated that there will be a third (or rather fourth option, as they left the blank) option being “Divers” (= miscellaneous/other). It'll only affect government documents, not economy or family laws. People can apply to have it changed
BUT
they have to bring in a doctor certificate stating that they have a medical condition that results in them being neither male nor female. That's where it starts going down the slide. Basically it'll only affect people born intersex and I'm glad for them, glad that they can have it recognized from birth on or change it on their own from age 14 on, even against the wish of parents, being able to change their name in the progress right away. Having to go through tests that are first off expensive and second humiliating is doing it wrong. It also excludes non-binary people that aren't intersex.

What the law doesn't say either is if there should be a diverse bathroom option. Neither does it forbid operating on intersex children without their consent to make them better fit a gender. They haven't taken the chance to work on the multiple laws regarding trans people either, which are currently a miss-match not even experts see through, leading to a lot of confusion and insecurity. For example someone birthing a child has to be put down as the mother, regardless of what gender they wish to be or what role they want to represent in their family. As for names, if you want an neutral name you still have to have a second name that is clear to sort into a gender and it's not possible to have a name not aligning with the gender.
Their is just so much going wrong with this I fail to find words to express my feelings, except that I feel left out even if official changing my gender is still a future thing I haven't decided upon. But I'd like to have the option to just go to my local office, state that I want to be put down as “divers” and change my name to fit it, just because I say so. As multiple institutes wanted to do, applying to change the draft to match it, to go the full step to include non-binary people. To my latest research the government saw no need for that, sadly, and will likely put the law down as drafted.

[Ativan Prescribed]

That they can't be bothered to go out of their way for every snowflake is being the definition of a special snowflake right there.
Again, they are using the social construct that gender is based on sex and it just isn't, if it was, then why have the designation of gender?
Why would they use two different things to mean the same thing? Because they can't be bothered to go out of their way to think for a minute and understand that gender is not the same thing as sex.
There is no reason go through backflips to remedy a lot of these things, if they are about gender, then say so and do what you have to, and move on.
If it is about sex, then do what you have to and move on.
Just the idea that if say your passport uses gender, then it is about gender and sex doesn't enter into the conversation.
If it has sex designations, then it has to have the variables of intersex, it's not just one thing, it's a lot of things, different kinds.
Reality is that people need to just grow up and stop the forever end of times shit because gender and sex is to complicated for them, if that is complicated, then they won't realize when the end times do come.
Like where I live, the arguments about nariages and the resulting stupidity from it and the endless protests that were more about abortion than marriage, they took the words relating to sex and gender out of the law, shortened it right up and it's even simpler to understand, if you want to get married, then get married.
And there are countless documents and laws and such that don't have to have either of them in it, they do that to keep the separation of people by designation alive, and men want to use that so women know their place...

[Tornait]

Well, about the thing that they mix gender and sex up - german hasn't got different words for that. It's both "Geschlecht", which makes nonbinary discussions very complicate as you have to first explain there's a difference depending on context and due to lack of options introduce people to the english word. A point at which a lot zone out right away and wave it off as 'some hollywood/Youtube/new age trend'.
Here they had to (rightly) react to make the place better, but since it was an intersex case they only make it about that, instead of thinking a bit further than needed and now we got this law that'll be discrimination on another part. And knowing the slow grinds of politics, it'll take forever to adapt it.

[EchelonHunt]

That is very frustrating, Tornait. We have a member here, Taka, who is from Europe (Norway, I believe?) and they spoke of their country having similar attitudes towards gender. Last I heard, it is even illegal for doctors there to prescribe HRT to transpeople, many had to go to another state to get surgery or HRT.

The law doesn't recognize transpeople, only that biological sex exists and that's it. They also had the same issue that there are no gender-neutral pronouns available.

This is really upsetting that countries are operating this way. Is there a local LGBT place that is pushing for recognition of non-binary folks' rights in Germany?

[nyx]

I just found this thread... it makes me sick to live in a so-called 'modern' country which is at the same time bigot-heaven. 
Since Tornait's post, good-as-nothing has changed over here. There have been discussions, but nothing to be taken seriously.

I know a person who doesn't actually identify as nonbinary but I think they actually are somehow under the umbrella as they never have identified as female but also not as transmale - they wanted a top sugery because they couldn't identify with their breasts and wanted to get rid of them. And here is the bad news: they talked to docs and therapists but they all told them they could only have a full FTM transition (including bottom surgery) or nothing - but my friend didn't want to have bottom surgery as they weren't dysphoric about their genitals. Last thing I heard was that they started to put aside some money to get the surgery done privately (if you can pay for it, you can have most of things somehow)...

I know that there are many people in Germany who are nonbinary but there is no big movement although there are small groups of activists (I don't know any of them personally, though). As Tornait pointed out, we have a big problem with the language here. Gender and sex are the same, language-wise. There aren't any nonbinary pronouns that are spread widely enough to make the masses notice. We are basically invisible which makes it very scary to even think about coming out as I can't imagine most of the people to even understand what it means.

But to build up a movement, to become visible, I think we need to come out and fight because if we don't, things won't change... that said, I'm still too afraid to do anything... but I feel there is something happening inside of me. I'm angry. Very angry.

[Trinity]

Jan 27, 2021 16:48:48 GMT 8 nyx said:

I just found this thread... it makes me sick to live in a so-called 'modern' country which is at the same time bigot-heaven. 
Since Tornait's post, good-as-nothing has changed over here. There have been discussions, but nothing to be taken seriously.

I know a person who doesn't actually identify as nonbinary but I think they actually are somehow under the umbrella as they never have identified as female but also not as transmale - they wanted a top sugery because they couldn't identify with their breasts and wanted to get rid of them. And here is the bad news: they talked to docs and therapists but they all told them they could only have a full FTM transition (including bottom surgery) or nothing - but my friend didn't want to have bottom surgery as they weren't dysphoric about their genitals. Last thing I heard was that they started to put aside some money to get the surgery done privately (if you can pay for it, you can have most of things somehow)...

I know that there are many people in Germany who are nonbinary but there is no big movement although there are small groups of activists (I don't know any of them personally, though). As Tornait pointed out, we have a big problem with the language here. Gender and sex are the same, language-wise. There aren't any nonbinary pronouns that are spread widely enough to make the masses notice. We are basically invisible which makes it very scary to even think about coming out as I can't imagine most of the people to even understand what it means.

But to build up a movement, to become visible, I think we need to come out and fight because if we don't, things won't change... that said, I'm still too afraid to do anything... but I feel there is something happening inside of me. I'm angry. Very angry.

I think we all are angry.

It's probably the biggest problem we all face as nonbinary people.  It can eat us alive.

You should start a thread about that, how we deal with our anger, what it does to us.  Society can be full of those wishing to cause harm or not understanding.  The biggest battle begins inside us, so that their harm and actions do not affect us, but fall to the ground.  That takes a lot of self esteem and knowing the truth of us, that we are worthy of esteem and love.

In a world of hate, thought control, and political oppression, it becomes so important for ourselves to build a world around us of support, love, understanding, and environment.  We need to be able to shield ourselves from the hurt while being aware of what is going on, detach from the pain and anger but deal with the causes, so that it does not get internalized and turn on us.  If it internalizes, it eat us alive, and many conditions we are not able to change, but some, we can, each small battle.

This is why we are the diamond heart warriors of trans, of nonbinary.  Because we have to be so strong, so full of light and life, so loving, and yet, face down the opposition around us and not buy into the lies or the demonizations.  We overcome by humanizing, by being exposed to it, but not taking it in.  We learn to be who we are, and not back down from that to appease others.  We find the strength to be ourselves.  And if we have to take matters into our own hands, paying for our own surgeries, well, its been like that for decades, I pay for my hormones here in the states, have the diagnosis stuff and the paperwork, but oppression is real.

So we have to rise above that, fight it where we can, withdraw when necessary, and keep our heads on.

Its a battle for the heart and mind.  There can be much strength drawn spiritually if we find it, and much strength from others who love us as we are.  It is important though to find the strength inside ourselves, in our cores.  Some find it in rage, some find it in love, some in both, some in God.  But it is there to be found, find what works for you, and vent and cry and punch and scream and love and be and learn how to fly.

We live in the Matrix.  We have to learn not to let the Matrix live inside of us.  We overcome the Matrix.  The agents mean nothing to us, we take away their power to hurt our lives and our feelings, we rise above them with our love.

[Leena]

I personally don't care all that much about pronouns, but I don't think I'd like using a gendered language. Maybe gendered language will eventually become archaic, though it takes a long time for language to change like that. Slang and technical jargon moves much faster though. How that moves is by groups of people using it.

While it's possible for things to get covered in the US depending on the state and insurance company, many trans people pay out of pocket. A lot of trans related healthcare places here don't even take insurance.

Greater trans and nonbinary visibility here has led to a lot of backlash. It is a long fight, I never imagined there would even be this level of acceptance when I was a kid.

[Trinity]

the backlash is there, but I think we are more determined than ever to stand our ground.

The more we are out there, the more it is harder to demonize and stereotype us.

But that is here in the states. I have no idea what germany is like, but I would imagine it could be very scary.

[nyx]

Jan 27, 2021 21:52:21 GMT 8 Trinity said:

I think we all are angry.

It's probably the biggest problem we all face as nonbinary people.  It can eat us alive.

You should start a thread about that, how we deal with our anger, what it does to us.  Society can be full of those wishing to cause harm or not understanding.  The biggest battle begins inside us, so that their harm and actions do not affect us, but fall to the ground.  That takes a lot of self esteem and knowing the truth of us, that we are worthy of esteem and love.

In a world of hate, thought control, and political oppression, it becomes so important for ourselves to build a world around us of support, love, understanding, and environment.  We need to be able to shield ourselves from the hurt while being aware of what is going on, detach from the pain and anger but deal with the causes, so that it does not get internalized and turn on us.  If it internalizes, it eat us alive, and many conditions we are not able to change, but some, we can, each small battle.

This is why we are the diamond heart warriors of trans, of nonbinary.  Because we have to be so strong, so full of light and life, so loving, and yet, face down the opposition around us and not buy into the lies or the demonizations.  We overcome by humanizing, by being exposed to it, but not taking it in.  We learn to be who we are, and not back down from that to appease others.  We find the strength to be ourselves.  And if we have to take matters into our own hands, paying for our own surgeries, well, its been like that for decades, I pay for my hormones here in the states, have the diagnosis stuff and the paperwork, but oppression is real.

So we have to rise above that, fight it where we can, withdraw when necessary, and keep our heads on.

Its a battle for the heart and mind.  There can be much strength drawn spiritually if we find it, and much strength from others who love us as we are.  It is important though to find the strength inside ourselves, in our cores.  Some find it in rage, some find it in love, some in both, some in God.  But it is there to be found, find what works for you, and vent and cry and punch and scream and love and be and learn how to fly.

We live in the Matrix.  We have to learn not to let the Matrix live inside of us.  We overcome the Matrix.  The agents mean nothing to us, we take away their power to hurt our lives and our feelings, we rise above them with our love.

Yes, I will start a thread about it, good idea!

To me, it is not only a battle for heart and mind.
I understand how important it is to stay safe and mentally stable.
But as long being trans or nonbinary is publicly seen as a disorder that is listed on the ICD, it is real-life war. As long as people build more and more barriers keeping us away from the health care we need, we are in battle. As long as trans and/or nb people are thrown out of public bathrooms for not passing as the stereotypical figures that are allowed to pee there only, we are not safe. (you all know this already - I just want to make clear why I can't make this a private matter, it is always political as our mere existence is political...)

The situation in Germany is not worse than in the US. I would rather call it different. We have a generally stronger social care system. We pay high taxes for a public health care, nearly everyone here has a health insurance that will pay for all necessary medical treatments. You have a broken leg, you don't have to pay for anything. If you think you want a prettier nose, you have to pay for it because your nose does it's job well, you simply want a nicer look. I think this is why it makes me angry when thinking about gender-related surgery. If it is not covered, it means it is not regarded necessary.

It also brings up the issue of class. I could save enough money if I wanted a certain surgery that is not covered. There are many people wo can't. So it seems to be dependant - at least to some extend - on how rich people are, which makes the whole thing even more unjust.
So in the end I think there will many battles have to be fought until I can find rest. I know it can be a question of life and death if one doesn't have the resources to fight, though. And the first consideration has to be safety. I know that. This is why I am still sitting in the closet, actually.
So this is all big words from a small and anxious closet-inhabitant, lol. But for now, I want to at least imagine my revolution... dreams will never cease.

[Trinity]

Jan 28, 2021 20:48:24 GMT 8 nyx said:

Jan 27, 2021 21:52:21 GMT 8 Trinity said:

I think we all are angry.

It's probably the biggest problem we all face as nonbinary people.  It can eat us alive.

You should start a thread about that, how we deal with our anger, what it does to us.  Society can be full of those wishing to cause harm or not understanding.  The biggest battle begins inside us, so that their harm and actions do not affect us, but fall to the ground.  That takes a lot of self esteem and knowing the truth of us, that we are worthy of esteem and love.

In a world of hate, thought control, and political oppression, it becomes so important for ourselves to build a world around us of support, love, understanding, and environment.  We need to be able to shield ourselves from the hurt while being aware of what is going on, detach from the pain and anger but deal with the causes, so that it does not get internalized and turn on us.  If it internalizes, it eat us alive, and many conditions we are not able to change, but some, we can, each small battle.

This is why we are the diamond heart warriors of trans, of nonbinary.  Because we have to be so strong, so full of light and life, so loving, and yet, face down the opposition around us and not buy into the lies or the demonizations.  We overcome by humanizing, by being exposed to it, but not taking it in.  We learn to be who we are, and not back down from that to appease others.  We find the strength to be ourselves.  And if we have to take matters into our own hands, paying for our own surgeries, well, its been like that for decades, I pay for my hormones here in the states, have the diagnosis stuff and the paperwork, but oppression is real.

So we have to rise above that, fight it where we can, withdraw when necessary, and keep our heads on.

Its a battle for the heart and mind.  There can be much strength drawn spiritually if we find it, and much strength from others who love us as we are.  It is important though to find the strength inside ourselves, in our cores.  Some find it in rage, some find it in love, some in both, some in God.  But it is there to be found, find what works for you, and vent and cry and punch and scream and love and be and learn how to fly.

We live in the Matrix.  We have to learn not to let the Matrix live inside of us.  We overcome the Matrix.  The agents mean nothing to us, we take away their power to hurt our lives and our feelings, we rise above them with our love.

Yes, I will start a thread about it, good idea!

To me, it is not only a battle for heart and mind.
I understand how important it is to stay safe and mentally stable.
But as long being trans or nonbinary is publicly seen as a disorder that is listed on the ICD, it is real-life war. As long as people build more and more barriers keeping us away from the health care we need, we are in battle. As long as trans and/or nb people are thrown out of public bathrooms for not passing as the stereotypical figures that are allowed to pee there only, we are not safe. (you all know this already - I just want to make clear why I can't make this a private matter, it is always political as our mere existence is political...)

The situation in Germany is not worse than in the US. I would rather call it different. We have a generally stronger social care system. We pay high taxes for a public health care, nearly everyone here has a health insurance that will pay for all necessary medical treatments. You have a broken leg, you don't have to pay for anything. If you think you want a prettier nose, you have to pay for it because your nose does it's job well, you simply want a nicer look. I think this is why it makes me angry when thinking about gender-related surgery. If it is not covered, it means it is not regarded necessary.

It also brings up the issue of class. I could save enough money if I wanted a certain surgery that is not covered. There are many people wo can't. So it seems to be dependant - at least to some extend - on how rich people are, which makes the whole thing even more unjust.
So in the end I think there will many battles have to be fought until I can find rest. I know it can be a question of life and death if one doesn't have the resources to fight, though. And the first consideration has to be safety. I know that. This is why I am still sitting in the closet, actually.
So this is all big words from a small and anxious closet-inhabitant, lol. But for now, I want to at least imagine my revolution... dreams will never cease.

Great stuff.

In the state of Florida, we have a monster that is in the state senate who has specifically  targetted trans and was reelected this year.  While there was some pushback on the anti trans laws he has tried to pass, he is a real threat to the well being of trans in this state, and a dangerous one.

I wanted to do something about it, and it had pushed me right to the edge when it was in session, but was cautioned by a real trans warrior not to take him on, that there were others that had backing and would do it.  So we are reliant on the trans movement to take on the ogres that are in power.

I respect that warrior, and she has been on tv and spoken publically and done a lot.  Her choice is that monetary gifting to those pro trans organizations would be the most helpful.

Personally, the difference I can make and am called to do is here on the forum, and also through the performing arts, though that part of things is fuzzy lately, just due to life circumstances.  For me, its about being around if someone reaches out, and doing the support thing, trying to make them stronger, less alone, more esteemed.

I have great concerns for the spiritual health of the trans community, because of the soul killers that are out there, this is the matrix at its worse, another hard battle to fight, and its diabolical.  But that is for another thread and a specific part of the forum, to avoid the triggers that are deeply embedded in those discussions.

We all have our callings and parts to play.  But as with all warriors, training comes first, strength, and calculation.  My closest friends are real warriors, having put their lives on the line, with the scars to prove it.  I am nothing compared to that.  It's humbling, but there is no shame in knowing your limitations either.

Joining spirit with others is a heavy decision going into battle, knowing how it will affect you.  Glad you came here.

[nyx]

Trinity , it is great to hear that there are people who might be able to change some things in Florida! I am thankful for all the strong people out there.

But I think people like you who chose to connect and support are also very strong!

It motivates me to know that there are people like you on this board who have fought battles - perhaps not the big political ones, but as I said I think everything we do has some political aspekt. And even if not political at all, by being there for others who are having hard times, you make a difference. I have fought battles against myself in the past and it took years to make peace with it, still there are dark moments when thinking too hard about it. But this is another story - What I want to say is that I know what it takes to overcome the darkness lurking inside. I can only imagine how hard it might be, leaving the closet, transitioning, everyone being able to see the changes - this is so huge to me. In my eyes, you are a warrior, too.

[Trinity]

Jan 28, 2021 21:52:47 GMT 8 nyx said:

Trinity , it is great to hear that there are people who might be able to change some things in Florida! I am thankful for all the strong people out there.

But I think people like you who chose to connect and support are also very strong!

It motivates me to know that there are people like you on this board who have fought battles - perhaps not the big political ones, but as I said I think everything we do has some political aspekt. And even if not political at all, by being there for others who are having hard times, you make a difference. I have fought battles against myself in the past and it took years to make peace with it, still there are dark moments when thinking too hard about it. But this is another story - What I want to say is that I know what it takes to overcome the darkness lurking inside. I can only imagine how hard it might be, leaving the closet, transitioning, everyone being able to see the changes - this is so huge to me. In my eyes, you are a warrior, too.

Every person on the board has battles they fight and makes a difference here.  Every person is a warrior.

I just share a lot.  I had a ton of help and would not have survived without it, so I try to share what helped me.

I'm glad you are being helped by everyone here.

The group is strengnthened every time anyone on it shares, no matter what they say.  No one person has the answers, because every journey is different, and everyone has something important that they bring into the forest.