Can Cis Lesbians and Trans Women Learn to Get Along?

[Deleted]

Can Cis Lesbians and Trans Women Learn to Get Along?

"In theory, our multifaceted, multi-lettered queer community is all about alliance, solidarity,
and mutual support. Though we’ve seen advances in areas like marriage equality and non-
discrimination ordinances, systematic oppression of LGBTQ individuals continues in the form
of disparate treatment in health care, employment, criminal justice, and public accommodations
such as bathrooms and similar sex-segregated spaces. With so much to fight against outside our
coalition, divisions within it have largely gone unchecked, with destructive rifts continuing to
grow. One of the widest of these rifts exists between the L’s and T’s, particularly between
cisgender lesbians and trans women."

slate.me/1MsC3K2

[Deleted]

There's a rift between cis lesbians and trans women? My cis lesbian parents and I get along fine.

I'm probably going to disagree with 90% of this article, but I guess I'll read it anyway...

...In particular, one group of radical lesbian feminists...
"Feminists" being the key word here, not lesbians. There's a reason I consider myself an anti-feminist. A lot of reasons, actually.

...Even lesbians who aren’t intentionally transphobic can still harbor fears and stereotypes based on their lack of familiarity with trans women (the same goes for trans women, who can be suspicious and fearful of cis lesbians).
The first part of this statement should just be common sense. Lesbians are not in some special position to understand the trans experience just because they're attracted to women instead of men. The second part I find highly questionable. Trans women are suspicious and fearful of lesbians? Why? Unless you've personally had bad experiences with lesbians, I don't see any basis for such feelings whatsoever.

One persistent stereotype in the cis lesbian community is of trans women presenting a narrow, old-fashioned sort of femininity of the type that many lesbians have dedicated themselves to dismantling politically and socially.
Everything in this article is so over-politicized. The author is making so many assumptions. The article itself assumes (wrongly) that everyone, or even the majority of people who identify as either LGBT or Q are activists, and that they even agree on the same political views and solutions. The quoted bit above wrongly assumes that lesbians are generally hardcore political activists and that their political ideology must align with feminism simply because they're lesbian or women. Another assumption that isn't based in reality. Also, exactly what is the problem here? The trans lesbians who share the same gender ideology as the cis lesbians mentioned above can date each other, and those who have a more traditional view of femininity can do the same. There needn't be some big unnecessary conflict between the two groups.

Media portrayals that show trans women in this light have added to this perception, despite the fact that trans culture itself has long since opened itself up to a range of female presentations as varied as those among cis women.
I find this bit so patronizing. Since when did trans women have some vastly different and stifled expression of femininity than cis women? Many would argue the exact opposite -- That trans women have a greater understanding and appreciation for femininity because we've had to scrutinize these concepts so much and actively work to feminize our appearance, and in many cases, our mannerisms and behaviours as well. What does that author mean that "trans culture" (a term I find ridiculous on its own) has "long since opened itself up to a range of female presentations"? Are they saying that the claims that we are presenting a "narrow, old-fashioned sort of femininity" were once credible? What is "narrow, old-fashioned femininity," anyway? Since no one can agree on a clear definition of what constitutes femininity and masculinity, this could literally mean anything.

Because many trans women are themselves lesbian or bisexual, cis and trans lesbians are forced into regular social contact, making the misunderstandings and mutual ignorance particularly likely to lead to conflicts, hurt feelings, or exclusion.
If we're talking in terms of dating partners, I'm sorry, but anyone has the right to exclude someone from their personal dating pool for any reason, and everyone does. All the time. Everyone is looking for different things in a partner. And rejection is just something everyone has to deal with when they enter the dating world. You're bound to meet all sorts of people that have ideas and personalities you find offensive, stupid, annoying, etc. That's what makes it so magical when you finally do find someone you click with.

While trans lesbians seeking romantic connections in the lesbian community are often frustrated by the knee-jerk resistance many cis lesbians have to dating trans women, hearing that one’s individual reluctance to date someone may be based in transphobia can feel unfair and accusatory.
There's a big, big difference in someone being transphobic and someone who is not personally interested in dating a trans person (or a trans person who isn't interested in dating a cis person, for that matter). Not being romantically or sexually interested is completely within someone's rights and they should not be made to feel some bizarre form of guilt just because they may not be interested in, for example, a pre-op transsexual. If they find penises gross, it is not okay to accuse them of being intolerant because they don't want to have sex with a woman who has one. That is completely within the realm of their personal physical preferences in a dating partner. So is any other reason. Some people won't date anyone with a specific hair colour, or want someone of a certain height, or any number of other things. It's not discrimination.

Rumors of trans women who attempt to pressure lesbians to date them by insisting that it would be transphobic to do otherwise don’t help matters—these stories may be apocryphal, but the fear of being pressured into a romantic relationship is hardly conducive to relaxed getting-to-know-yous
Okay, this is just utterly stupid. Is the author really saying that there are cis lesbians out there who don't actually care if a women is trans, but stay away from them anyway, just on the sheer unfounded possibility that if they don't connect for completely unrelated reasons, the trans woman may accuse them of transphobia? I... Words fail me. *bangs head on desk*

*looks at scrollbar* I'm not even halfway through this drivel? Okay, I give up. I still haven't even figured out the actual point this article is trying to make, unless it's so spread a bunch of wild accusations about both the lesbian and trans communities.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I thought it was a bit ridiculous, too. Oh well.

[Ativan Prescribed]

TERF wars. A very strange thing to read about.
Seems to be more in OZ than here, but I pay little attention to the little squabbles it seems to be.
They appear to be louder than they need to be...

[Deleted]

Wow. Is this an attempt to separate the LGBT community even more? I think anyone can get along as long as personalities are compatible. To me it is all about respect. If a lesbian woman wants to embrace masculinity I will respect it. Hopefully they will respect my embrace of femininity. I have run into it once and it kind of hurt a little but I got over it. She was only one. Others have been extremely respectful whether lipstick or butch. But can gays and trans learn to get along? Same sort of question and it is up to the persons involved and their own prejudices or open mindedness. OK so I know that even gay guys.. Well you have to read some psychology books about that. I won't go into it because I don't want to be trashed.

OK so a little confuzzed here but what is a "cis lesbian"? Is anyone in the LGBT community really cis? This is about as fruitful as the question on the old forum of binary and non binary trans. I could never understand it. If you are trans whether MTF or FTM or a mixture of both how can you be binary? I don't really want to open old wounds but it is almost like two fleas fight about who owns the dog they live on. OK so I ma more MTF and embrace and cherish the femininity. But how can I be binary? I don't even know if it's possible. Seeing how my dream care is a '69 ( I wonder why :rolleyes:that year) Camaro painted pink with white racing stripes from the hood across the top all the way to the spoiler on the back and then under the bumper. The interior would be snow white with pink trim. Wow how binary MTF is that. But I would take a red Ferrari too.

OK so I have had some butch lesbian girlfriends. Wow what an experience especially the contrast between body hair and hairless. their masculinity and my femininity and we both had what pleased each other.  Maybe there were secretly FTM. I don't care because they were special regardless. I have had lipstick lesbian girlfriends and wow skin on skin is really as sensual. And I really knew how to "talk" to them plus a "little" extra. Little but a little extra that works sometimes.  But really I don't care who someone is whether non binary, binary MTF or Binary, non binary MTF or binary or non binary MTF, gay, bi or lesbian. As long as we can be friends and enjoy the same things. I don't care. People are people and I gave up a long time ago looking at orientation, gender identity or anything else as long as I can have fun with them and they will respect me for who I am. I just want to be loved and cherished just like I want to love and cherish someone else regardless of anything else except for being best friends.

I just really don't understand why articles like this are even being written other than to divide us even more.

[Deleted]

I'm always sceptical of articles like this--those that talk about certain attitudes that "some people" or "a lot of people" have or may have or may have had. I'd like to know how many people have such attitudes. There's also the point that thinking may not be so cut-and-dried. It can be more nuanced than is presented in such articles.

As for me, I don't know what attitudes I have towards cis lesbians because I've never thought about them very much. I've run into two or three in recent times, and they were perfectly cool. They didn't start a fight with me and I didn't start one with them.

[Taka]

they're just presenting the harshest myths and rumors, so they can say in the end that everything will get better if we just stand together instead.
an odd way of doing it. would be better if they tore it all down and painted pretty colors instead.

[Ativan Prescribed]

There is a thing going on right now about something or other at the Opera House in Oz?
Trans women have been excluded and a main speaker for this woman's thing is transphobic.
I could go look it up on my FB page, one of my favorite rebels in the world of trans wrote something about it, I didn't read it in full.
There is also Cathy Brennan, who does nasty things to transwomen and makes a big stink that they are not women.
That's a big part of this TERF war going on. Cis lesbians vs Transwomen. It is a select group who is louder than they are big.
I hear about it mainly from my Oz friends and their friends.

But I haven't run across anything that is very noteworthy anywhere else, just the same old bigotry stuff, which I guess the above is.

[bhhfmm]

I get along ok with the one I rent a room downstairs to. But then I don't want to have sex with her either.

[Deleted]

Feb 20, 2015 4:44:34 GMT 8 Ativan Prescribed said:

There is a thing going on right now about something or other at the Opera House in Oz?
Trans women have been excluded and a main speaker for this woman's thing is transphobic.
I could go look it up on my FB page, one of my favorite rebels in the world of trans wrote something about it, I didn't read it in full.
There is also Cathy Brennan, who does nasty things to transwomen and makes a big stink that they are not women.
That's a big part of this TERF war going on. Cis lesbians vs Transwomen. It is a select group who is louder than they are big.
I hear about it mainly from my Oz friends and their friends.

But I haven't run across anything that is very noteworthy anywhere else, just the same old bigotry stuff, which I guess the above is.

Could it be some of these women that hate transwomen are actually a little jealous? I mean there are some transwomen that can blow even some of the most beautiful cis women away beauty wise. Also could it be that we are embracing femininity when they are shunning it? Maybe their exes ran off with a transwoman? I can't really understand why people choose to hate others just because of who they want to be or how they want to express themselves.

HMM. Cis lesbians vs transwomen? That would leave more guys for me, right? 

[Ativan Prescribed]

They talk about not having the life experiences of a cis woman, so that disqualifies them, even from the butchest of groups who do this.
But read up about Brennan, one nasty fucking bitch.
She's a lawyer and slaps lawsuits on anyone who disagree's with her, even though it is a frivolous lawsuit,
you have to get a lawyer to fight her, and I guess she has won a lot of times.
She goes way to far out of her way to out trans woman at their jobs and follows them and outs them where ever she can, basic harassment.
Try to stop her and she slaps a lawsuit on you.
Being just honest, from some of the stuff I've read, she is almost designated as a single person hate group by Southern Poverty Law...
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if she ends up with half her head blown off.
And quite possibly, by another lesbian, not necessarily a trans woman or trans lesbian...It's almost like she has 24 hr a day road rage kind of anger.
But there are others as well. Read up on TERF's. But it's a little skirmish in a much bigger battle for equal rights.

[lesbian]

"Can Cis Lesbians and Trans Women Learn to Get Along?"

No.

Cis lesbians have to set boundaries with men and have unanimously decided that being trans isn't a real thing. This means as far as a lesbian is concerned, a trans woman who identifies as lesbian is both a fraud and a man trying to violate her boundaries. No other interpretation is allowed and all judgements are binding and final.

On the other side of the fence, Trans Women who are lesbians are in this uncomfortable position of living as sexual human beings and having their sexuality shamed by the very limited group of people who could be considered partners. So they either have to fight to be taken seriously or resign to being celibate. This creates a natural tension against lesbians who have monolithically rejected them and pat each other on the back for how much they can stick it to them.

Under the surface I think it probably feels good to attack and feel like you're attacking up. Most cis lesbians don't think they're punching down even though they are, and a lot of things like body shaming and sexuality shaming are things they would defend each other from, but happily do to trans women. Trans women get upset about this, but it's easy to just reframe into a man demanding things.

Everyone's talking, nobody is listening, and there isn't a drop of compassion on either side. So no, they will never get along. I think trans women should look at lesbians as being no better than straight women in terms of dating prospects and just avoid the community altogether. That way, although it isn't really peace, we can at least have a ceasefire. Besides, it's probably a waste of time arguing with them anyway.

[EchelonHunt]

Lesbian just explained all the reasons why I'd prefer to date a queer woman who is open to dating anybody irregardless of gender identity and genitalia over a cis lesbian who only wants to date other cis lesbians.

Though I feel it's important to note that not all cis lesbians are the same, just as transwoman aren't all the same.

Telling lesbian transwomen to just avoid the lesbian community altogether seems quite unfair because it is possible for a cis lesbian to love a transwoman. Its not impossible. In Sense8, a cis lesbian told her transwoman partner that she would have thought it would be impossible for someone like her (cis lesbian) to date someone like you (transwoman). She realised that impossibility is a kiss away from reality. What she thought was impossible (being attracted and loving a transwoman) ended up being possible.

[Trinity]

Odd. My experience has been much different.

A stereotyped answer just doesnt fit.

So i dont agree with the animosity. Because its never been directed at me.

[Wormmms]

To me the obvious answer here is that TERFs just fundamentally misunderstand trans women- specifically they misunderstand the fact that THEY ARE NOT MEN. They don't experience "male socialization" or "experience male privilege" they've experienced closeted trans woman socialization and any privilege they may have been afforded for being perceived as male is immediately lost when they start presenting as female. Another TERF misconception- that they will be forced to date trans women. Patently untrue. No one is trying to coerce you into having sex with someone if their genitals don't match your preferences. Literally all trans women (and particularly trans lesbians) want from cis women is to be included in women's and lesbian's spaces because they are, after all, women and lesbians.

This transmisogynist garbage is so normalized that sometimes I'll see lesbian acquaintances sharing trans exclusionary articles on Facebook. Like, they have no shame about being openly bigoted. One of my very close friends who happens to be a trans lesbian is terrified of trying to date in the lesbian community because she feels unwelcome and threatened by the possibility of encountering a TERF.

Not every feminist is a TERF and not every lesbian is a TERF, but transmisogynistic attitiudes are allowed to flourish, mostly unchallenged, in both communities. Everyone should just read Whipping Girl tbh...