Michael Tsarion on Androgyny

[Deleted]

with an extra segment by Mark Passio.



"You cannot totally have somebody suppress their sexuality
and their gender. To do that causes instant pathology."

— Michael Tsarion

[Ayla]

Quick reaction, which is always dangerous.

The quote appeared to be at complete odds with his thesis  - that is the male and the female should aspire to embrace each other and that androgyny is the target or most evolved state.  He demonstrated that this was the case in most religions and spiritual traditions so I found the statement a little out of place.  I am obviously missing something here - please help.

Re Mark Passio - wow.  Wasn't impressed with his rambling nor his call to bear arms.  

I wasn't sure why these two folk were juxtaposed.  

Confused

Aisla

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2016 15:47:41 GMT 8 Ayla said:

Quick reaction, which is always dangerous.

The quote appeared to be at complete odds with his thesis  - that is the male and the female should aspire to embrace each other and that androgyny is the target or most evolved state.  He demonstrated that this was the case in most religions and spiritual traditions so I found the statement a little out of place.  I am obviously missing something here - please help.

Re Mark Passio - wow.  Wasn't impressed with his rambling nor his call to bear arms.  

I wasn't sure why these two folk were juxtaposed.  

Confused

Aisla

Well, yeah.. you kind of have to be familiar with their work to grasp it fully. I sometimes forget that and pass things along. Mind-blindness. It's an Asperger's thing.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, though, that the quote is at odds with his thesis. He said it in the video when expressing how one of the aims of organised religion is to divide and separate gender (while offering up synthetic proxy), and that such suppression of sexual or gender expression is going to cause pathology or mental/emotional imbalance.

True religion — true spirituality that has not been soiled with ego and power hunger — embraced the androgynous nature of humanity. It's the perversions of true religion that divide in order to rule.

The gun thing I'm just not going to discuss, because it's irrelevant.

[Ayla]

Got it. I took the quote as a general statement and not as a criticism of the impact of organised religion. But the latter makes sense whereas the former didn't

Many thanks

A

[Shan]

Feb 8, 2016 15:59:09 GMT 8 @illuminess said:

True religion — true spirituality that has not been soiled with ego and power hunger — embraced the androgynous nature of humanity. It's the perversions of true religion that divide in order to rule.

I can relate to that statement, though I'd delete the term (true) describing any religion as they are institutions created by man which invariably has a hierarchy and oppressive rules with which to govern and oppress the adherents and create a polemic atmosphere between those adherents and outside unbelievers. Whereas spirituality simply entails direct personal and singular intimacy with a Higher Power

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2016 23:46:35 GMT 8 Shan said:

Feb 8, 2016 15:59:09 GMT 8 @illuminess said:

True religion — true spirituality that has not been soiled with ego and power hunger — embraced the androgynous nature of humanity. It's the perversions of true religion that divide in order to rule.

I can relate to that statement, though I'd delete the term (true) describing any religion as they are institutions created by man which invariably has a hierarchy and oppressive rules with which to govern and oppress the adherents and create a polemic atmosphere between those adherents and outside unbelievers. Whereas spirituality simply entails direct personal and singular intimacy with a Higher Power

Well, by "true religion" I don't mean the institutions designed by men, but the practice of devotion, worship and initiation in one's path to spiritual awakening.

[EchelonHunt]

I wish there was a written excerpt of the video because listening to a guy with monotone voice doesn't thrill me. Being hearing impaired, the thick accent and garbled audio quality as if he's a bit too close to the microphone doesn't help either.

But based on the discussion, I would like to randomly mention that one of the reasons why I appreciate Hindu mythology so much is because "Vaikuntha Kamalaja" of Vishnu being depicted as being half male, half female (I think it's half-Vishnu and half-Lakshmi, his consort and wife, I believe). I haven't heard of any other religion that has that kind of gender-mixed deity in their scriptures. (Oh boy, does that mean another research tangent at 12:45AM?! Woohoo!)

I really want to make a thread about all the androgynous deities out there. That could be really interesting!

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2016 0:49:26 GMT 8 EchelonHunt said:

I wish there was a written excerpt of the video because listening to a guy with monotone voice doesn't thrill me. Being hearing impaired, the thick accent and garbled audio quality as if he's a bit too close to the microphone doesn't help either.

But based on the discussion, I would like to randomly mention that one of the reasons why I appreciate Hindu mythology so much is because "Vaikuntha Kamalaja" of Vishnu being depicted as being half male, half female (I think it's half-Vishnu and half-Lakshmi, his consort and wife, I believe). I haven't heard of any other religion that has that kind of gender-mixed deity in their scriptures. (Oh boy, does that mean another research tangent at 12:45AM?! Woohoo!)

I really want to make a thread about all the androgynous deities out there. That could be really interesting!

Yeah, his voice is a tad bit dull, and he has several DVDs with hours of presentations. I love his perspective, though, and he has an excellent book on philosophy and Selfhood called "Disciples Of The Mysterium". It's exclusively on Kindle, though, unless you can find a PDF.

Most, if not all, religion of antiquity embraces the androgyne nature of the human soul. It wasn't until the patriarchal dominion and denigration of the Sacred Feminine that gender became divided and separated in religion with the Goddess being quickly suppressed. Anything to do with the Sacred Feminine principle — especially art (i.e. "graven images") — was deemed as sinful and blasphemous while the age of literacy began. Words are limited and easier to pervert their meaning, while art and symbolism are more directly in communication with the subconscious. Anything that spoke to the soul through imagery would quickly be deemed as idolatry.

Despite the suppression of the Sacred Feminine — The Goddess Principle — it is clearly beginning to rise up again. It can be seen in art, film, and fashion, but it's also very clear that Nature herself is serving as a channel as we are seeing more and more fearless expression of gender, including biological development (transgender identity).

The word "perverse" or "perversion" comes from the Latin 'per' meaning "thoroughly, or by way of", and 'vertere' meaning "to turn". Therefore, to pervert is to change something from its original state. It originally does not mean sexually degenerative or ill, but something that is taken away from its originality. A bottle of water infused with some kind of sugary flavoring is a perversion of that water. A pure strain of sativa cannabis that has been genetically crossed with an indica to create a hybrid strain is a perversion of that original sativa.

Even though something may be a perversion doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, or immoral, or an abomination. It's simply a derivative or a tweaking of something that was inherently pure or unchanged. By this definition, I am, biologically, a perversion of what was meant to be naturally whole and precise; or cis. The process of development took a wrong turn which caused mental and physical misalignment.

So, being trans may be a perversion of nature, it doesn't mean that our existence is wrong. Nature is full of unique perversions, and some of them end up being stepping stones for another stage in evolution. Being autistic is a perversion of neurotypicality, but through that we offer the world unique gifts, qualities, perspectives, and beauty. It is no different with being transgender.

The reason I bring this up is that I believe the current rise of the Goddess is a primary cause of more and more variance in gender identity and expression; emotionally, spiritually, mentally and biologically. At the same time, the Sacred Masculine is being denigrated, as well, as men are being manipulated through entertainment, advertisement and other media into suppressing their own masculinity. It's important to have balance. The Feminine should be fully expressive, and so should the Masculine. I'm not saying that men shouldn't explore or express their feminine side, but that the Sacred Masculine is being corrupted and perverted, where cowardice is being praised as courage, and where aggression is being praised as strength.

If only reality was simple and easy to contemplate, but it is so complex and variant. So, instead of working towards understanding it we ignore it allowing chaos as a result. We need to be bringing the Feminine and the Masculine into its natural state of balance. That doesn't mean pushing gender into separate states of expression as society tries to do today, but finding that balance within ourselves so that the external world begins to reflect it.

[Taka]

Feb 9, 2016 0:49:26 GMT 8 EchelonHunt said:

I wish there was a written excerpt of the video because listening to a guy with monotone voice doesn't thrill me. Being hearing impaired, the thick accent and garbled audio quality as if he's a bit too close to the microphone doesn't help either.

But based on the discussion, I would like to randomly mention that one of the reasons why I appreciate Hindu mythology so much is because "Vaikuntha Kamalaja" of Vishnu being depicted as being half male, half female (I think it's half-Vishnu and half-Lakshmi, his consort and wife, I believe). I haven't heard of any other religion that has that kind of gender-mixed deity in their scriptures. (Oh boy, does that mean another research tangent at 12:45AM?! Woohoo!)

I really want to make a thread about all the androgynous deities out there. That could be really interesting!

but what about hermaphroditus...?
or australian rainbow-serpent gods or inuit androgynous gods, if you wants something closer to a creator?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology