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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 18:10:07 GMT 8
So I was doing a little research on the transgender umbrella and I cam across bigender which I had not heard of before. According to Wikipedia, bigender is:
Bigender, bi-gender or dual gender is a gender identity where the person moves between feminine and masculine gender identities and behaviors, possibly depending on context. Some bigender individuals express two distinct "female" and "male" personas, feminine and masculine respectively; others find that they identify as two genders simultaneously. It is recognized by the American Psychological Association (APA) as a subset of the transgender group. A 1999 survey conducted by the San Francisco Department of Public Health observed that, among the transgender community, less than 3% of those who were assigned male at birth and less than 8% of those who were assigned female at birth identified as bigender.
A bigender gender-identity has been described as varying from over time between two extremes. These periods can be anywhere from a few hours to a few years and there is no limit to the number of times that it may change. A student at the University of Missouri, Kansas City, described the back and forth shift, saying “ Some days I wake up and think 'Why am I in this body?' [while] most days I wake up and think, 'What was I thinking yesterday?'”
Identifying as bigender is typically understood to mean that one identifies as both male and female and/or moves between a masculine gender expression and feminine gender expression with little middle ground. This is different from identifying as genderfluid, as those who identify as genderfluid may not go back and forth between any fixed gender identities and may experience an entire range or spectrum of identities over time.
Does anyone in this forum feel this way? The quote above as relevant to me would read: “ Some days I wake up and think 'Why am I in this body?' [while] some other days I wake up and think, 'What was I thinking yesterday?'”
I have never felt comfortable with being gender fluid, or queer - it seems that this is almost like a form of binary non-binary. This kind of makes sense. Sometimes.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Sept 15, 2015 19:05:43 GMT 8
I also never felt comfortable with being genderfluid, my gender always settled on genderless with fluctuating masculine/androgynous/feminine gender expression (I like to say I have a genderfluid expression), rather than distinct gender identities shifting or overlapping.
I felt like this today. I was referred with male pronouns and while this made the "masculine" or FTM part of my identity happy, the feminine aspect of me felt extremely dissatisfied.
My feminine side has been feeling more and more dissatisfied lately. I aim to experiment a little with feminizing the clothes I wear to class in order for there to be a happy medium between male and female, to become more true to myself, to have an expression that reflects both of me without disregarding the other.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 19:58:15 GMT 8
Thanks Echelon. My feminine side has been kept supressed since forever. I am testing a bit, but not outwardly noticeably so. But at least I can see my nailpolish on my toes (and I wonder what will happen when I go to gym to swim - the mens changerooms could be interesting with me wearing nail polish). I am going to try next fall to start wearing feminized clothing too. There is a lot of metrosexal stuff out there and there are also a number of women's items that are quite masculine. Just I have to do it slowly and carefully so as to let my wife get used to it. Strange days.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Sept 15, 2015 20:26:16 GMT 8
I will be doing it slowly as well so my family can adjust. It helps that I see people online and offline breaking the male/female stereotypes and expressing themselves freely.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 0:32:23 GMT 8
Oddly i dont have the why body or what was i thinking sruff, my gender is constant, my body fairly binary ts. But the dynamics of self reacting to externals may change in response to environment and body language and reactions are quite varied.
Im glad for the consistency. Its a happy place in my head, heart and body.
I got called into a high level board meeting today. My body being sh'e and me male stealth, i felt uncomfortable and asked if i could lean on a desk. Then hands and body language faded and i focussed on context and nailed it.
In gender, we could say "he" spoke and sh'e hid behind him. But in reality, all of me was fully present, i just yeilded to the attributes i needed to. Unfortunately like Jayce I've been heavy stealth and under pressure and that is slightly unbalancing. Not much, but there is some discomfort. It passes quickly at night when i become fully me. Or sh'e if that image works.
But gender is way too dynamic to contain. Its more like watching it play and then being it, then using whatever you want in full knowledge that you still are you.
And noone can take it from you. We can give it away, but itll always find us again. Trith is truth.
So, no. My experience now is different.
Blessings dear ones
Trinity
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Sept 16, 2015 1:10:54 GMT 8
Wikiwhatever is behind in terms of what is current thinking. The survey going around now that's on these boards should give a much more accurate picture, but it will never be a complete one so long as people have a need to hide because of bigotry. While it is interesting to see some of the terms and definitions that have been used, in my experience, people seldom stay with one. They are more or less stages or versions of ourselves, our self, as we discover and become comfortable with our gender.
Ultimately, I would think the goal includes not having to even think about it for the most part. Most cis take for granted that their genders are intact and they are one of two, the binary. But even among them according to a recent survey that included over a thousand people, roughly 20% had characteristics of their gender that a large portion of self identified NB people have. It's a muddled line, but I think the point is, that you shouldn't box yourself up in a term or definition, they just don't always apply.
Trinity see's how it is fluid regardless of how you want to define your gender, it's characteristics, it depends on outside influences as well as your own. That's not to say that everyone needs to identify as fluid, it's just a part of it, whether large or small.
Be descriptive of your gender, a definition boxes you in whether it is for the short term or long. The terms and their definitions are more like stages and everyone goes through them differently. It is up to each person, but from what I have seen over the years, is that most everyone goes through many different changes as they discover the complexities of their gender. Look at what people write, you'll see and understand the descriptive versions in context, much easier than trying to fit a term and one of it's definitions into context.
It's a good reference point, to look and see what those terms and definitions are and have been, there is much insight to them all, but they rarely fit well enough to use them in a continuous manner. If you like them, be flexible with them, but better still, use them to be descriptive. It really is a lot easier to go through life discovering the true extent of your gender rather than trying to defend a term and one of it's definitions as to who you are as far as your gender is concerned.
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Post by Taka on Sept 16, 2015 2:03:54 GMT 8
just to confuse you a little... i seem to be genderfluid in a way that goes between bigender and rather androgyn (more like components of both than neither nor).
the bigender thing is real to me when it goes on. i'll be in a very distinct male or female gender identity at times, but the confusion about it went away when i gave the male identity a place to exist, online. it's interesting how balancing things out makes me less dysphoric..
but i never stop being me no matter how things turn and bend, and i'm a little more confusing than a "simple" male/female bigender person. (they most likely exist, and are unlikely to actually be all that simple.) so i generally try to not define myself in terms of gender, even when i give others a gender identity to relate to.
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Post by Ayla on Sept 16, 2015 5:01:17 GMT 8
Thank you for this thread. I seem to have much in common with most everyone who has posted. At a macro level I have shifted from a long held sense that I was in the wrong body and was therefore binary trans to one which feels to be a lot more nuanced and subject to my unique sense of self and situation. While this may sound more than a little over thought and complex, the only way that I can describe it is as being on a journey of discovery and realisation, finding joy in knowing that I am free and increasingly more comfortable to just 'be me'.
It is only when I try to pick a label, a category or a box that I feel confused and experience taxonomic dysphoria. In terms of taxonomy I have felt that Wikipedia's definition of dysphoria, on occasion, does fit well, but on other days or in other periods androgyne, gender fluid and other terms also seem to fit. The only thing that I do 'know' is that I am not binary male and I am not binary mtf.
Indeed if I try to locate my centre of gravity or 'mean' gender state then this moves and in some way oscillates from more m to f to A to gf to A and then back again with a tendency towards a blend and greater fluidity. Perhaps what is more confusing or perplexing is that at some stages my focus and motivation shifts from emotional to physical dysphoria and how I present or dress may or may not be important.
Somewhere in this mist I am now discerning truth, a sense that gender is no more to me than a construct of self, aided and abetted by my bio, psycho, social makeup and experience. As I seek change, grow and improve my self understanding and experience, I anticipate that the use of gender terms will prove of limited and ever decreasing utility, perhaps best avoided or only employed when conversing with those who have yet to take a similar journey of discovery and delight.
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 5:46:19 GMT 8
I'm smiling ear to ear about the wonder of this dialogue.
Are you enjoying it Cherie?
Yum. Like a summer night and a gentle breeze. And we all have walked some rather long paths to discover ourselves, haven't we. We walk them together, arm in arm.
☺
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Post by Leena on Sept 16, 2015 11:43:29 GMT 8
I've went back and forth between these two, quite a lot. I think who I am is someone who has some of the characteristics of both. I feel like mentally, there are two energies there that sometimes fight for control, and sometimes are in agreement. The main reason I don't use bigender as my label is that most that do seem to keep their presentations separate, while I feel more comfortable presenting androgynous all the time, lately been experimenting a bit more femme, but still androgynous. I don't feel like I am fluid to all genders or to agender, Mentally, I only really go to boy, girl, or both. I can go to mixed mode, but it is very uncomfortable for me, despite me basically choosing to appear as such. I'm happy and at peace when I feel I'm both, but there's no real way to present as such...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 14:40:43 GMT 8
Thank you everyone for your replies. I really appreciate them. They have been really interesting. I think I pretty much agree with a lot of what is said, and mainly my hurdle (which I think will last forever) is to learn to not live with a label and to try to live outside the binary, whatever that is for me at any given moment. I like your ending Aisla, of safe travels, as this is certainly a journey.
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Post by Taka on Sept 19, 2015 21:08:57 GMT 8
living outside the binary is a funny way to think about it. the binary we talk about is most definitely a social construct, as we know there are societies that have three or more accepted genders to choose between. so living outside the binary isn't as much living outside everybody else's box (since the box doesn't even exist other than in their heads), as disregarding current definitions of gender.
religions (or their power hungry leaders) have had a lot to do with limiting the choices. if an indian person chooses to officially live as the 3rd gender, they'll immediately be put in the same box as prostitutes, since that is what their caste system said is the only line of work they may choose. a femme gay bottom or trans woman would easily get srs in iran, because genitals define gender in their holy texts, and it's better to just turn someone into a woman than have the headache of possibly having to execute someone just for taking it in the butt. and in saudi arabia, trans men can transition fairly easily, as there is no rule that a man must have a penis, just that anyone with a penis is a man, and when in doubt, the jewish religion, and probably also islam, say that it's better to grow up as a man since they have more religious responsibilities. it would be a sin if someone who is a man were to mix with women and avoid their responsibilities as a man, but there is nothing wrong with a woman entering male spaces, it could be treated as an embarrassing mistake if an intersex person married a woman just to find out that they had female internal sex organs. something which allows traditions like bacha posh in afghanistan. or women to become men in saudi arabia.
the discussion of what is a man and what is a woman is really interesting. every culture seems to have their own answer, all so different. in west, we're so obsessed with what sex a person "originally" was, while in countries infamous for their sexist laws have no problems with changing someone's sex and relating to them as their new status.
i'm way outside the original discussion though...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 21:54:45 GMT 8
And trying to break out of the thinking, the conditioning, living in that reality that is made for us that we don't fit.... not that easy until you realize its just what I keep refering to as the matrix.
An illusion that feels so very real when you are inside it.
Loved the post Taka.
(flutters away, gently, so sh'e doesn't tease.)
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Post by danishcouple on Nov 16, 2021 2:06:35 GMT 8
At the start of our transition we both feeled us not female and not male, but male and female at the same time. Both we are born female but feeled tere was something missing our body's waren't complete, we find out that we both missed was a low voice manly body hair and facial hair and testosterone in our body's, but didn't want have surgery's at all so we wanted testosterone and then we're complete. So 20 years a go we started injecting each other 4 times a year with a full dose of testosterone, and now years later we've became te persons who we wanted to be, we are now e perfect mixture of both binair genders, having a vagina, full grown breasts , having a low voice some muscaline and both we are now very hairy we have lots and lots more body hair grown than expected, both we are extremely haired now, and having full grown beards we are now very happy with this result till now.
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Post by koiandras on Dec 20, 2021 18:01:00 GMT 8
I'm ambigender, so I have two gender identities constantly, with no genderflux or gender fluidity. I always feel libramasculine and an agender woman. I present as tomboy-femme and sometimes like to be more feminine or masculine, but that comes more from my mood or the type of event I'm attending, not from any internal feeling about my gender. For example, if I attend a wedding or a ball, I would look at that as an opportunity to dress more feminine, but if I attend a convention, I would look at that as an opportunity to crossplay as male characters. Most other events, it could go either way or just my default tomboy-femme. Again, it would just be a choice I make in that moment in the same way that I might choose whether I order an Indian or Chinese takeaway.
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