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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 0:00:27 GMT 8
Just read about the armed Iranian lunatic holding citizens hostage in a cafe in Sydney. Apparently he didn't get the message that guns weren't allowed and obviously the Prime Minister's speech against those immigrants who refuse to assimilate and become good Australians went right over his head. I don't think there's a death penalty in Australia but perhaps one of the constables could have an "accidental discharge" and alleviate the problem once and for all.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Dec 16, 2014 1:03:02 GMT 8
It is over.
It is said that the gunman became enraged about the hostages fleeing and began shooting the remaining hostages inside the cafe, the police swept in at the first sound of gunfire and the rest is history.
This has not been confirmed officially but it is all over the news media, that two are confirmed dead (one is assumed to be the gunman, the other is not yet to be confirmed if a hostage or a police officer)... and three... perhaps more injured.
I watched it live online and held my breath in horror. I pray and hope that the official reports state no hostages have died. It is too close to Christmas, the thought of families spending Christmas with one less family member is just too heart-breaking.
The individual in question was an Iranian refugee who came to Australia in 1996, he is accessory to the murder of his ex-wife, has an extensive police record, has 40 sexual/indecent assault charges against his name... had a website that promoted propaganda(?), encouraging Muslim brothers and sisters to fight against oppression, against USA and their allies (including and specified UK & Australia) - the website has since been taken down.
It is bed time for me. Good night.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 1:27:33 GMT 8
It is over.
It is bed time for me. Good night. Thanks for the update, good night Jacey!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 2:01:02 GMT 8
Why did this have to happen?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 2:00:22 GMT 8
Shan, It is also about tolerance and courtesy. I work with Iranians and both Shiite and Sunni muslims. They are neither jihadists nor fundamentalists. There are evil people of all races and religions. In the US the cops shoot unarmed Black men. There are churches, mosques, and temples where hate is preached from the pulpit. Yes one zealot did something horrible in Sidney. And it isn't that guns are not allowed in OZ, rifles and shotguns (including semi-automatic), as well as handguns are all legal within certain criteria. Violent crime in the US is six time the rate of similar crimes in OZ. The restrictive gun laws there are a direct result of a mass killing some time ago (Anybody remember the specifics, I don't want to look it up). The point is it isn't immigrants, muslims or any other identifiable sub group that can or ought to be pilloried. It is intolerance and self righteousness that create the hate and much of the violence. We of all peoples need to be accepting, aware, and loving of our neighbors - yes even when we disagree. I love you sweetie, Julie When people immigrate to another country they are expected to assimilate and uphold the laws of their new home, that's not on the agenda of some groups as is evidenced in Europe and some places in the US most notably Dearborn, Michigan much to the chagrin of many citizens of those countries. One thing is certain, there will be no room for the existence of GLBTI people when they instill their own biased hate filled laws. Being tolerant of intolerance isn't a good idea ever.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 5:24:33 GMT 8
Fighting in a war is one thing. Killing innocent people or using terror tactics against innocent people and calling yourself a warrior is insane. And these people that do this I don't care what religion, nationality, race or anything else they are but they are not soldiers or warriors. More like cowards. Now this morning I heard the Taliban attacked a school in Pakistan and several children were killed. Really brave to storm a school full of children that are unarmed. How can they even justify it? Is it Jihad or Genocide? Is it a war or a Halocaust? Strange times we live in for sure.
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Post by Ayla on Dec 17, 2014 15:25:37 GMT 8
My issue is when folk conflate terrorism with criminal action. I agree that multi culturalism only works where there is mutual respect and a shared commitment to build a society that is fair for all. In this instance we had a migrant who fled their own country, who clearly had a whole range of deep seated psychological problems, is an unconvicted criminal, who has been deeply affected by their life experience and sense of Australia's role in present and past conflict. They were currently facing the courts for a whole range of offences, any one of which would have resulted in a heavy custodial sentence. My understanding is that they were on the way to see their barrister (attorney), following a lost appeal, to vent their anger at the legal authorities but decided to enter the chocolate shop. Purely random and quite irrational.
Even the ending of the siege appears veiled in confusion and conjecture. The gunman had apparently warned the group that for everyone that escaped he would kill one of the remaining hostages. The survivor mentality runs strong, a number put their survival above others and the chance for a peaceful resolution was lost.
I don't believe in the right to bear arms but I respect that some societies and groups see this as their constitutional right. When a mentally disturbed criminal (they were also wanted in Iran) causes damage or death, only damage control or mitigation remains. I don't know why the police did not shoot the gunman through the window as they had a number of opportunities, but there again I was not the person who would need to accept the consequences of taking another's life without knowing if they had an accomplice or a dead man's trigger for hidden explosives. It really was a catch 22 and there were no winners. The 38 year old attorney and mother, or the 34 year old manager who wrestled with the gunman were clearly victims but in many ways so was the gunman themself.
I am not sure what I would have done in this situation - would I have escaped when I knew that it was likely to cause the death of another hostage; would I have taken the shot and risked a tragic event or explosion; would I .... what I would like to think is that I would learn to love and to forgive all those involved in this tragedy. Only in this way will the cycle of hate be arrested. There truly are no winners in tragic situations like this.
Safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 21:04:30 GMT 8
My issue is when folk conflate terrorism with criminal action. I agree that multi culturalism only works where there is mutual respect and a shared commitment to build a society that is fair for all. In this instance we had a migrant who fled their own country, who clearly had a whole range of deep seated psychological problems, is an unconvicted criminal, who has been deeply affected by their life experience and sense of Australia's role in present and past conflict. They were currently facing the courts for a whole range of offences, any one of which would have resulted in a heavy custodial sentence. My understanding is that they were on the way to see their barrister (attorney), following a lost appeal, to vent their anger at the legal authorities but decided to enter the chocolate shop. Purely random and quite irrational. Even the ending of the siege appears veiled in confusion and conjecture. The gunman had apparently warned the group that for everyone that escaped he would kill one of the remaining hostages. The survivor mentality runs strong, a number put their survival above others and the chance for a peaceful resolution was lost. I don't believe in the right to bear arms but I respect that some societies and groups see this as their constitutional right. When a mentally disturbed criminal (they were also wanted in Iran) causes damage or death, only damage control or mitigation remains. I don't know why the police did not shoot the gunman through the window as they had a number of opportunities, but there again I was not the person who would need to accept the consequences of taking another's life without knowing if they had an accomplice or a dead man's trigger for hidden explosives. It really was a catch 22 and there were no winners. The 38 year old attorney and mother, or the 34 year old manager who wrestled with the gunman were clearly victims but in many ways so was the gunman themself. I am not sure what I would have done in this situation - would I have escaped when I knew that it was likely to cause the death of another hostage; would I have taken the shot and risked a tragic event or explosion; would I .... what I would like to think is that I would learn to love and to forgive all those involved in this tragedy. Only in this way will the cycle of hate be arrested. There truly are no winners in tragic situations like this. Safe travels Aisla Sometimes Aisla, people are strange and what goes through thier minds as justification for what they do is amazing. Some people really need to be locked up away from society for society's own good. From the sound of it this guy should have been behind bars. I would have had some sort of respect for him if he would have released all the hostages unharmed when the police arrived and faced the police on his own. It would have been sucide pretty much, but a much bigger statement for his "cause". I would have still seen it as a crime and hostage taking but realeasing them unharmed and then fighting his fight I could have at least had respect for. Not agree with it by any means still. Those hostages were thrown into a situation that most have never been trained for and that would be facing their own demise and not knowing when or if it will come and they will probably be affected by this one situation for the rest of their lives. This is in no means limited to anyone or any religion or any political affiliation. But those that do these horrendous things because the feel justified in thier minds to hurt innocent people. Not just limited to armed gunmen storming cafes or schools either but to all those that hate for the sake of hating and use that hate as justification for hurting people physically or psychologically. Sometimes the psychological pain is worst than the physical pain. When I was in the ARMY I made a choice that if I was ever deployed and then in a situation to be captured, the enemy would have to kill me. Fortunately I never had to come to that decision and really don't know what I would have done in that situation. No one ever does but in my mind that was what I prepared for.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 23:22:12 GMT 8
Insisting that immigrants absolutely assimilate to the culture they move to is an idea grounded in colonialism, the idea that one culture is somehow better and more worthy than another. You can respect the laws and culture of a country without having to give up your own. Assimilation narrative divide groups into the 'good' and 'bad' portions, can be used to justify horrendous acts of violence against entire groups of people at a systemic level (so not individual actions, rather laws, rules, bias amongst judiciary etc), while at the same time tarring everyone in that group of people with the bad brush, even if they are assimilating the way the system deems proper.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 23:47:55 GMT 8
Insisting that immigrants absolutely assimilate to the culture they move to is an idea grounded in colonialism, the idea that one culture is somehow better and more worthy than another. You can respect the laws and culture of a country without having to give up your own. Assimilation narrative divide groups into the 'good' and 'bad' portions, can be used to justify horrendous acts of violence against entire groups of people at a systemic level (so not individual actions, rather laws, rules, bias amongst judiciary etc), while at the same time tarring everyone in that group of people with the bad brush, even if they are assimilating the way the system deems proper. Oh I don't know about that, people came from all over Europe to the US and though the first generation immigrants do tend to live in their own little enclaves and are resistant to learning the language, the second generation seems to assimilate well enough. It doesn't have anything to do with colonialism when people come here to be free and seek opportunities that weren't formerly available to them. Tens of thousands of Vietnamese came here following that war and assimilated rather nicely, many have received college educations and most do rather well as productive American citizens.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 0:00:13 GMT 8
On a brighter note the US is going to "normalize" relations with Cuba. Having dealt with that government in such a heavy handed manner all these years only served to hurt the citizens while the leadership there continued to live like princes, it was an ill conceived and evil policy. People who haven't seen their relatives in years will now be reunited and able to visit their former homeland.
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Post by Ayla on Dec 18, 2014 3:44:05 GMT 8
I never really understood the continued antagonism on either side. Should benefit both countries. Cuban cigars will now be legitimately imported into the U.S., families will be reunited and tourism expand.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 7:17:20 GMT 8
I never really understood the continued antagonism on either side. Should benefit both countries. Cuban cigars will now be legitimately imported into the U.S., families will be reunited and tourism expand. No-one else got it either hon! I think it was retribution against Castro for refusing US help and turning to the Russians for support as there would be business as usual strings attached by the US. It may have seemed like the lesser of two evils as Castro was tired of the US using Cuba as a whore house, the Russians were on the opposite side of the globe and the prospect of being physically occupied by Russian forces was not too probable. The US has always been viewed by Latin American countries as an oppressor nation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 12:07:00 GMT 8
Fighting in a war is one thing. Killing innocent people or using terror tactics against innocent people and calling yourself a warrior is insane. And these people that do this I don't care what religion, nationality, race or anything else they are but they are not soldiers or warriors. More like cowards. Now this morning I heard the Taliban attacked a school in Pakistan and several children were killed. Really brave to storm a school full of children that are unarmed. How can they even justify it? Is it Jihad or Genocide? Is it a war or a Halocaust? Strange times we live in for sure. Jamie, It is evil - nothing less and must be dealt with as such. There are people who are convinced that their way is the only way, and will kill or torment others to ensure that they find whatever twisted reward they think due them. They are evil! Sadly, they are many. Julie Unfortunatly so. It sux but humankind seems to be evil at the core in many instances. OMG how have we been persecuted? Not on crosses but verbally? This is what hurts me. But I will gladly burn in a hell for everyone of us if there is a hell. I don't think there will be for us but if so, I will offer myself. That is how strongly I feel about us as people. Yeah I know. It sounds stupid and fake but... I truly would though. Evil will always be with us. Sometimes in sheep's clothing and sometime in all the ugliness that shows it's true self.
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Post by JamieP on Jan 13, 2015 4:04:12 GMT 8
Re: the Cuban news that the US is going to open up relations, like Shan, my feeling is that this hurt the innocent individuals & 50 years overdue. I think Kennedy was going to release the embargo, but his assassination ended that & no President took a look at that again. The Cuban people can be reunited. Hopefully trade & tourism will improve the country's economy & a better way of life for the citizens with more pay for their work. Americans will finally be able to do what Canadians have done for years, vacation in Cuba. I remember Senator Strom Thermon once wanted to ban Canadian companies with some business in the US because they traded in Cuba. As far as I know nothing came of that. I am pleased to see this change to the good with US/Cuban relations.
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