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Post by Edge on Jun 2, 2015 10:43:28 GMT 8
When I first came out as trans, I ended up being told by a few people that "it's ok to be an effeminate man." While that's true and I agree, they said it pretty randomly to me. It really bugged me because it was like they were telling me "it's ok to not be you." Not that there's anything wrong with being effeminate. It's just not me. At least, not in ways people tend to think. I also heard a lot of people looking down on guys like me. Including to me because it honestly didn't occur to them that I am one of the guys they were insulting. They claimed that aggressive trans guys are really just trying to prove something. I've been aggressive my whole life. Seriously, I was the toddler that bit people if they pissed me off and not much has changed. (Aside from taking anger management and the fact that I no longer bite. Much.) I'm not trying to prove anything. It's just who I am. If you get me in some loud, hyper-masculine group where they roughhouse and stuff, I'm likely to fit right in and have a great time. For some reason, people assume otherwise. They call it toxic. I call it my kind of party. It's who I am when I'm female and both too. Whenever I try to talk to people about that, they suddenly get this picture in their head of someone who is much more effeminate than I am. Like women can't be like me which is kinda sexist. I told my friend about this and he almost choked on his drink.
Either that or they suddenly think I don't fit the labels I choose for myself. I do. All of them. I like man skirts. Like those floor length, goth skirts that look really hot on guys. From what people tell me, that's considered "effeminate," but that hasn't stopped the guys I knew from being masculine and badass (and smoking hot) anyway. Why would it stop me? (I don't wear them now due to dysphoria. I want my chest fixed first.) Pardon my french, but I f*** men. Media and members of society associate that with being effeminate for some reason, but that doesn't stop Gaahl from being brutal, Rob Halford from being a metal icon, or well, I like Steve Hughes's take on it. And none of that has anything to do with gender. Where was I going? Oh yeah. The point of the above was to point out that having some "effeminate" traits doesn't make me any less "masculine." It's the same with gender for me. Sometimes, I feel female internally and more often I feel like both, but that doesn't make me any less of a guy. People go like "Oh so you fit more than one? Oh yeah we totally get it. Clearly, you don't fit any of them." And here I am going "Uh... They do fit me" and feeling like I'm being told I can't have my identity. (No, that doesn't actually stop me from having my identity. That's impossible. It just hurts.)
I've noticed there's this reoccurring thing among non-binary people where some will be against gender roles, but at the same time, they'll act like the reason anyone is non-binary is because they "don't fit" gender stereotypes. Like they're confusing gender with stereotypes as opposed to how I see gender which is based on instinct and has nothing to do with roles one way or another. They'll sometimes say things like that gender in general needs to be done away with. Ouch. My gender(s) happens to be important to me. I'm not doing away with it just because some people can't tell the difference between gender and gender roles. I also don't much appreciate having my gender confused with idiotic sexism. It's like calling me stupid while at the same time belittling part of my identity. I've been using the words "effeminate" and "masculine" as tools to help communicate above because of how the concepts and other people's belief in them affect me even though I don't believe in them. I'm against them because they're illogical as heck and have very little scientific basis. Gender does. Gender stereotypes do not.
Is there anyone else like me here? Because I'm feeling pretty alone and like no one else gets it. There's a few things here. Hopefully, I made some kind of sense.
Oh I should point out that I get this from non-binary people. Usually, when I complain about this in a non-binary space, I get responses complaining about how cis and binary trans people don't get it as if non-binary are some special group of people who would never do something like that. Even when they are.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 11:51:51 GMT 8
There will always be those people out there who think they have the monopoly on trans identity when truly every single one of us has total carte blanche. Telling new people that I am a trans woman often comes with the assumption that I'm going to be taking a 180 in my presentation by wearing tons of makeup, stilettos, and dresses. Many women do, cis and trans, but it's just immediately assumed that trans women are high femme. I like a lot of feminine things, but me in heels? Not happening. Maybe thick ones that aren't too high, but not the ones they are thinking of. I also like maxi skirts and dresses, but I'm very picky. Most of the time I just wear jeans and t-shirts, or a tunic-type shirt with leggings. I'm wearing that in this pic.
Anyway, how you want to express yourself is all that matters, because gender identity has very little to do with self-expression. I know that I am a woman, but I also prefer gender neutral clothing for the most part. I am me, and you are you.
I'm actually surprised that I haven't had anyone tell me "why not just be an effeminate man?" considering that I am aesthetically and romantically interested in women; because, you know, we all transition just to get laid. *eye roll* They don't realise that HRT nearly eliminates the libido. I never had much of one to begin with. And even those who choose not to use HRT do not transition for the sex. And what if some of us want to partake in gender roles? It shouldn't matter, because it's our lives, not theirs. We do what feels the most natural to us, not what keeps us in good standing with society.
These kinds of assumptions are precisely why it's important for all of us to continue to educate people. Even though we shouldn't have to, we really do, because most people aren't going to educate themselves if it doesn't pertain to them directly.
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Post by EchelonHunt on Jun 2, 2015 12:13:08 GMT 8
I get it. I haven't been told this but its been suggested that if I can't accept my body for what it is and have no surgery beyond top surgery, I'm not non-binary.
I hate that. What my physical comfort and what my physical body needs to look like, whether I jave surgery or not shouldn't bring my non-binary identity into question.
If other folks can live their lives content and happy with their body the way it is, more power to them. I cannot do the same and refuse to be bullied into conforming to the stereptypical non-binary narrative. Fuck that shit, I make my own narrative.
Being called binary transgender doesn't compute for me. Does this mean MTF and FTMs are reinforcing that the gender binary is well and truly alive, that being binary trans means we are a walking gender stereotype? Because fuck that, that is the most insulting shit I have ever heard. That is the kind of attitude that divides communities rather than bring them together.
To do away with gender...I agree with you. My gender (or lack there of) is important to me too. My physical sex has to be male, every bone and every cell in my body screams it to be male . My mind says genderless but there is no desire to have a genderless body.
People operate under the assumption that your gender identity and sex must be the same in order to be happy. I've seen NB folks fall into this trap too. It is frustrating as all hell.
Getting a male body and wanting to have a female voice to play around with doesn't make me any less of a man. Having a genderless soul doesn't make my desire to have a male body invalid. Having a dick doesn't make my female aspect of myself invalid.
Fuck the rules, fuck the stereotypes and fuck people who think they know us better than we know ourselves.
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Post by Edge on Jun 2, 2015 12:22:22 GMT 8
Oddly enough, I've had more people suggest that I be an effeminate man than people suggest I be a masculine woman. I'm faab. Of course, I'm glad that at least they see me as a man, but it's still kind of annoying. I guess since I was already masculine to begin with, people assumed I'd do a 180 the other way?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 19:52:00 GMT 8
Ya know, I triggered Edge on this one. And I also think its gunna be good.
The idea of Get rid of gender. I wanna get rid of chains. Screw the rest of it, I want my freedom to live.
I like angry people, my favorite driver was Tony, before he killed another driver on the track that was out of his car, tried to spin his wheels to hit him with dirt and sucked the kid right under his sprint car. I still like hothead, my name for him, but I like Danika better.
Im off topic.
Im supposed to be at work. This is important. Ill be out in a minute.
I grew up labeled as an effeminate boy. I became someone else, not a freaking persona, it was part of me that I pulled up and developed and trained to be tough as nails. I was a terror on the wrestling mat, I pulled a guys arm out of his socket, all 112 pounds of me, tearing apart my oponents, winning the county championship. Because I was sick of being called a faggot.
I'm a transsexual female body. My estrogen on saturdays pushes 650, 3 to 4 times the typical mtf female levels, ten times the nonbinary levels. So freaking what, I like how I feel and I need my tits to grow up. They are.
Put me behind the wheel of a racecar, see how effeminate I get. Do we label that? Racing with the rednecks. Is that gendered for me? My body language becomes intense, my attitude becomes crazy, look out, dont knock him out. Who is this guy racing light?
Where does that fit in with the gender dialogue? Am I false to be totally like that? How come the southern champ in my division is a girl, she lapped me more than once out there. Hot chick too. Man magnet.
Does me or you in fine lingerie make you less than you? Less than me? Are we wimps? Or stronger than most people would believe because we have the balls to be ourselves and buck the system. Its courage that folks really respect.
In some respects, me, with my excruciating physical gender dysphoria that requires my body to be feminized, yet, somehow I want my balls to remain, they just look like they are sticking out of a vagina to me, dissassociated somehow, does my insanely depressing and suicidal gender dysphoria make me less of a man out there?
I've faced down people and shamed them with being me. That inner stregth, to work in construction and be a non passing face made up tits showing balls obvious long nailed girl haired pretty faced transsexual worker, offering a redneck a cup of coffee and seeing the attitude destroyed as the male voice comes out of the girl he just read by looking at my delicious ass... they either smile and take it or they say thanks, and look away, and some walk out and make a cell phone call and come back once I retreat to the back of the office.
Who's strength is driving that? Am I less of a man? Protecting my family from extremely evil people, what about that....
Im no less of a man, no less of a me. But I reject for myself the false posturing that guys require of me. I lived with that too long. Its an act, until I get triggered and my body language changes to the racecar driver or the wrestler, ready to tear their arm off, that wasnt done in malice, I needed the pin and got it, his shoulder was in the way. No its no act at all at that point, they are going to have to deal with that part of me that is the protector. He aint to nice sometimes, and his rage can be... extreme.
So am I trying to invalidate the gender, or see it in another light....
I'm probably too pissed off to know.
Do I invalidate another persons maleness by slurring the stuff the males did to me? Do I value a soft male? What gives with all that?
If I was to be screwed, what would I want? I'd want to be ravaged. I'd want someone that could take me against my will, make me nuts with esctasy, drive me wild with passion, unleash themselves on me, inside and out. I'm horny and thats all girl and wild one at that, and drives my dysphoria to pain levels that are unspeakable.
It was a rant, there may be nothing good in here. I may piss off Edge, or Jayce, its worth risking it. We are supposed to be able to say what we think, feel. Its how we learn who we are. Gender so completely has failed me that I have a chip on my shoulder about it.
Put me in bed, unless its with a girl, there aint no guy around in me. He'd probably like to watch though. That part of me takes a hike, but appreciates the female body I have, and what is being done to it. I'm bisexual. Its natural to like both, think both and all are hotties. I'd lie if I said I didnt like what I look like. Sick thinking? Maybe. As far as I am concerned, I am a hell of a lot more of a man than those assholes that crucify transpeople and gay boys because they see them as weaker than them. Because honeys, I aint weak. Not by a long shot.
Uggh. Not Im not pissed Im brain dumping. Id go up against anyone with you guys and face them down along side you, in heels or not, and if they get me pissed off, they're gunna hurt. I didnt go through hell and back as a father and a husband to be devalued just because I can be pretty too.
It was a rant. I can't logically approach the topic. It just comes down to what defines us. The balls to be real, imo, and anyone that cant handle whatever our real is, they need to get out of our way. I know you folks can handle my real. I like yours.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 20:12:39 GMT 8
One last thing. As to the effeminate male. We have a gay boy in the office, he's a he, he's effeminate, there was a ton of hate speak in there.
Me coming out, he got protection. Its time to end the bullshit of big people fucking with little people or people that want to express themselves as out of the male norm. It felt good to go after that. If felt good to see the hatespeach retreat to behind closed doors, and people to walk around with their tails between their legs. Shamed for being cruel.
The kid wouldnt make waves, stand up for himself. He was just being himself. But that hatespeach had to be taken down.
The guys wanted to prove their maleness by belittling someone they saw as less than.
Yeah, I have an issue to get over.
I just want us to be free to be ourselves, no expectations, no stereotype, no role, just real. If the real is in sinc with a standard assumption about a gender polarity, whats wrong with that? If its out of sinc, whats wrong with that? If the maleness is renegage and bad ass, whats wrong with that? If I want to look sexy, whats wrong with that? If I want to screw with the gender roles and presentations, and I can pass if I want to, well, whats wrong with that? If you want to be yourself, whats wrong with that?
nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 20:32:24 GMT 8
Lol my shrink complained that all my decision making is by feelings, not by logic.
Wait a sec. Isn't that supposed to be some kind of gender thing?
,That's what I mean. Nothing fits. But that's me. Gee maybe that makes me ts...
I'll shut up now. Please don't get pissed off. I love you guys.
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Post by Edge on Jun 2, 2015 23:02:34 GMT 8
Ya know, I triggered Edge on this one. And I also think its gunna be good. No, you didn't. This has been something I've encountered from many people over the past few years and in many places. It was triggered by a feeling of not belonging in non-binary spaces that has been building and bothering me for awhile. You might want to be careful about your estrogen levels. Too much estrogen can cause wild mood swings. That's why pregnant people go kind of crazy. (Not just me. It's an actual thing that happens to cis women too.) That's also probably why being emotional is associated with women. However, it is only one factor that can affect emotions. There are plenty of emotional people of all genders. None of that stuff should come into gender dialogue at all. It doesn't have much to do with gender. It does though because people... Well, people annoy me. Gender is not gender roles. I want to keep repeating that until it gets into people's heads and they finally get it, but I doubt that's ever going to happen. I would never wear lingerie. Not anything to do with perceived wimpiness. Because I think they are uncomfortable and ugly. Not me at all. For me, the "posturing" isn't false and isn't an act. It's actually me. To me, wearing lingerie and heels would be fake and an act and make me very uncomfortable. I don't see effeminate guys as "less than" and I quite like letting them be who they are. I just don't also want to be told that I am "less than" or "fake" just because of how some other guys handle (or not) their insecurities. You don't invalidate maleness by slurring stuff males did to you. However, it does invalidate me when people (anyone) slurs guys like me and automatically assume I agree with them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 23:18:26 GMT 8
I wish I knew what my estrogen levels are. My results from last month only showed me my testosterone levels (which had plummeted to nearly nothing from a little over 500 ng/dl). I'll be doing more blood work this month, so I will ask my endo about my E levels this time. I'm also considering starting on a micronised progesterone.
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Post by Edge on Jun 2, 2015 23:19:51 GMT 8
Oh and being binary trans does not mean being a walking stereotype. Neither does being cis, but I've noticed many people tend to ignore that. Gender is not gender roles. Never has been, never will be. Claiming that binary people enforce gender stereotypes forces those stereotypes on binary people and does more to enforce them than binary people being binary does. Sorry for that short rant. It's not directed to anyone. It's just an attitude that I've encountered among certain circles of non-binary people and it really pisses me off.
I hope I make some sort of sense to someone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 23:37:11 GMT 8
Oh and being binary trans does not mean being a walking stereotype. Neither does being cis, but I've noticed many people tend to ignore that. Gender is not gender roles. Never has been, never will be. Claiming that binary people enforce gender stereotypes forces those stereotypes on binary people and does more to enforce them than binary people being binary does. Sorry for that short rant. It's not directed to anyone. It's just an attitude that I've encountered among certain circles of non-binary people and it really pisses me off. I hope I make some sort of sense to someone. It's sad that we even have to discuss these things due to them not already being self-evident. When common sense has to be legislated something is clearly wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 0:38:53 GMT 8
:-)
There's so much debunking required to even begin conversations.
The thread is good. It cuts through stuff. Stuff needing to be dealt with.
Ummm, you couldn't pay me to wear male underwear....
Yeah, estrogen. Yup. I'm stubborn, no doubt. It's like an amplifier. A good, loud amp.
Love ya
T.
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Post by Edge on Jun 3, 2015 4:11:38 GMT 8
Oh and being binary trans does not mean being a walking stereotype. Neither does being cis, but I've noticed many people tend to ignore that. Gender is not gender roles. Never has been, never will be. Claiming that binary people enforce gender stereotypes forces those stereotypes on binary people and does more to enforce them than binary people being binary does. Sorry for that short rant. It's not directed to anyone. It's just an attitude that I've encountered among certain circles of non-binary people and it really pisses me off. I hope I make some sort of sense to someone. It's sad that we even have to discuss these things due to them not already being self-evident. When common sense has to be legislated something is clearly wrong.I know right? I don't understand it. Yeah, Trin. I was just remembering being pregnant and crying at commercials that weren't even sad. It was pretty funny.
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Post by Sisyphus on Jun 9, 2015 1:16:51 GMT 8
I think this is an interesting thing for me to think about. I've been writing down my story for myself, and one of the chapters I'm working on definitely talks about getting rid of binary gender as a ruling function. I specifically say (to myself, in book form, cause thats how I roll I guess) that doesn't mean that all people have to be androgynous or dress alike or speak alike or get rid of all expressions and ways of being that we currently define as feminine or masculine. When you started talking about people who annoy you who want to get rid of gender, I'm thinking, no I'd like to get rid of the system we have now, but then you go on to say gender roles and gender aren't the same, and I'm feeling like, hmm, okay, maybe thats what I mean. So now I feel like I need to go back and re-read, do I say I want to get rid of gender, or do I say IDIC? Is my phrasing get rid of gender roles, or is gender? Or am I specifically saying, society! let go of gender, specifically binary gender as a binding corset that everyone has to wear or be damned! When non-binary people say they want to get rid of gender, are they saying they want to get rid of gender or are they using short hand for getting rid of gender roles, or getting rid of gender oppression, or getting rid of gender as this all encompassing, punishable by much, including death, social legislative nightmare. I think I'll go back and reread what I wrote and compare it against what you wrote.
I kind of had this, "no I don't agree with that, no wait yes that is exactly where I'm at, no wait, are we saying the same thing different ways: Oh I see, another nugget for me to chew on, deconstruct to the pulp and juice and construct back up again for deeper understanding" feelings while I was reading your post, Edge.
Illuminess, I don't think its sad at all we have to discuss these things. I've never found common sense to be common, that there are so many ways of doing things - hurtful, helpful, neutral (sometimes all three at different times or at once) - that assuming them to be self evident can actually reinforce misunderstandings and a whole lot of other damaging things.
I'm not saying don't feel free to resent the need for discussion. It can really suck to be on the pointy end of the firestick sociologically. I just know I wouldn't be anywhere near my understanding without discussion. That discussion, even where I disagree or it makes me feel uncomfortable, has given me things tools to work identify and work through the damage of the structure I've been grass fed on, and I wouldn't be where I am today without it. Discussion sets me free.
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Post by Leena on Jun 18, 2015 12:53:43 GMT 8
When I first came out as trans, I ended up being told by a few people that "it's ok to be an effeminate man." While that's true and I agree, they said it pretty randomly to me. It really bugged me because it was like they were telling me "it's ok to not be you." Not that there's anything wrong with being effeminate. It's just not me. At least, not in ways people tend to think. I also heard a lot of people looking down on guys like me. Including to me because it honestly didn't occur to them that I am one of the guys they were insulting. They claimed that aggressive trans guys are really just trying to prove something. I've been aggressive my whole life. Seriously, I was the toddler that bit people if they pissed me off and not much has changed. (Aside from taking anger management and the fact that I no longer bite. Much.) I'm not trying to prove anything. It's just who I am. If you get me in some loud, hyper-masculine group where they roughhouse and stuff, I'm likely to fit right in and have a great time. For some reason, people assume otherwise. They call it toxic. I call it my kind of party. It's who I am when I'm female and both too. Whenever I try to talk to people about that, they suddenly get this picture in their head of someone who is much more effeminate than I am. Like women can't be like me which is kinda sexist. I told my friend about this and he almost choked on his drink. I wish more people did think "it's ok to be an effeminate man." As it stands, it really is not ok according to too many, if it were, I might have turned out a bit differently. Probably still trans, and probably still choosing to mostly present as an androgynous male, but with less issues... That said, if that's not who you are, don't try to be, be who you are. I find that more people like me when I just am Veronica even wearing guys clothes then when I'm trying to fake being some man I'm not.
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