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Post by Ayla on Oct 12, 2015 19:41:55 GMT 8
“Now is the time — everybody has a new permission to describe themselves.” Gender fluid is not a clinical or medical term. It’s not a diagnosis. It’s not a condition. It’s a concept. So says Dr Lisa Brinkmann, a West Cork-based clinical psychologist and psychotherapist, who specialises in sex and gender-related concerns. She says the binary world of male and female, at opposite ends of the pole, doesn’t fit for all. “On one extreme, we have people with gender identity disorder, who feel trapped in the wrong body and want to transition from one binary to another. "Gender fluid means the in-betweens, those on the continuum between male and female – the biological girl who feels feminine but also quite masculine, the effeminate man, the genderless who don’t identify with either male or female and people who like to dip in and out of gender roles, presenting as masculine one day and female the next.” Fluidity, she says, is a beautiful term. “It’s like water, something that doesn’t have one form or shape. It’s a way of identifying that allows many different ways of being.” Gordon Grehan, office manager at the Transgender Equality Network of Ireland, says TENI is certainly seeing an increase in numbers of people identifying as gender non-binary — the person’s gender isn’t simply male or female. “At a trans youth forum in July, the majority of people who gave an identity identified as non-binary — it was the most prevalent gender identity.” www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/gender-fluidity-break-free-from-being-identified-as-male-or-female-356787.html
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Post by Durka on Nov 6, 2015 3:33:57 GMT 8
Interesting idea. For myself I feel neither male or female. Born into a female body but labelled a "tomboy" growing up. I guess I have always been at odds with my assigned gender. I still don't know quite how to deal with this. The label non binary feels comfortably easy. Like it's how it should always have been. The problem is I doubt people in my life will feel the same way as me.
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Post by Trinity on Nov 6, 2015 7:49:21 GMT 8
I wouldn't worry too much about the other people. More important to find the truth of what it is that you need, who you really are. I do not personally identify as either male or female, physically I have needs for the female body and went after that, the hormones as well, but in the social arena, no.
I am not part of the binary system. Sounds like you aren't either. And there is plenty of time to discover who you are.
Learning to deal with it, well, thats the journey isn't it. Learning to embrace it.
Blessings
Trinity
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Post by Leena on Nov 6, 2015 14:31:30 GMT 8
Lately, I've been feeling that I am basically a girl, and yet I don't feel the need to physically have a female body or hormones. I feel much more of a need to dress and act like the girl I feel I am. That said, I am genderfluid, or at least have been in the past, and could possibly flip back masculine again sometime.
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Post by Trinity on Nov 6, 2015 18:36:58 GMT 8
I have a friend i know like that. They are quite happy as themselves, they wear what they want and enjoy who they are. No hormones no desire for body correction.
They dont even worry about a wig.
Really cool person.
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Post by Mingma on Nov 6, 2015 23:31:28 GMT 8
Lately, I've been feeling that I am basically a girl, and yet I don't feel the need to physically have a female body or hormones. I feel much more of a need to dress and act like the girl I feel I am. That said, I am genderfluid, or at least have been in the past, and could possibly flip back masculine again sometime. Here's the thing. The gender you present as at any given time, is perfect if it feels perfect. I usually look something like a woman. Sometimes fem, sometimes pretty butch. It is all okay because it is all okay with me. HRT is not required, consistency is not required. What anyone else chooses to think is irrelevant. Being happy in your own skin is both the object and the goal. I'm using Mx as my day to day gender designation right now because that is inclusive and fun. Ciao, Ming
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2015 7:01:52 GMT 8
Can we really break free from the binary genders? Believe me I have tried and I can be either one sort of OK. But no matter how I can fake the male shit, in the end I will be female at the center of my personality. So I will always be transgender. I don't care to be 100% male or female. I am more female than male psychologically but male more than female physically but can..... Well I won't go into that. Gender fluidity? Yeah I can fake being male pretty good. I can pass as male pretty good too. I can alos go the other way fairly well too. But when someone gets close to me they know that I am not really a man. Oh a lot of girls and women, including my Ex, thought they had someone special and they in fact did. They just couldn't stand being considered a lesbian even by me. when we would go to Penny's, Dillard's, Stage or any other clothing based store and tried on clothes and I gave my opinion they were ecstatic that a "guy" could give them an honest opinion. But when I said, "My turn now." Fuckin' shit. I go in and try on a skirt and blouse and walk out. The fucking disgust in their face was enough to kill. But fuck them. So seriously what guys go shopping with a woman and give an honest opinion? That should have told them something right there. But gender fluidity though? I don't think I can ever break away from being a woman more than man. So maybe I'm just a binary MTF???? Even as a male???? Honestly I can't tell you what I am. I can tell everyone who I am and that is me. Jamie. But what. More female than male even though...... I can't break free from the binary. I can be a guy but deep down I am still a woman. The emotions are there. The Intuition is there. All the female stuff is there. I'm more confused than ever now. But not really. I guess I really know who I am. It's just hard to convince others.
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Post by Ativan Prescribed on Nov 8, 2015 2:17:06 GMT 8
You can't tell us what you are... there seems to be no real honest way to answer that, definitions get in the way. We define things differently, because we experience life in a different way, our definitions reflect that. Even within the NB community, it's difficult because our experiences are, and can be extremely, different. You can however, tell us who you are, because we recognize those differences of experience even if ours are different, we know this and can work with it. Yesterday I was talking to my psychologist, explaining just how I ended up breaking my arm, I had to explain several different things about longboarding. I get all done and she asks me to explain it again, but how gender plays a part in it. I do, but start out with telling her that I can keep it short by using he and she as the words for different aspects, how they relate to me, not to her, not to anyone else, but how they are for me. They can be either-or at times, different things going on, but in the moment, the aspects are feminine or masculine by my experiences, and as they are at the time. Retelling the story becomes very animated, I'm up and showing her different aspects as they happened and which way they felt at the time. The telling of it that way takes me all over what that transition line is, because I'm not transitioning, I am who I am, which isn't some place on that binary line. I also have to explain how some aspects can be masculine at times and feminine at other times, depends on what is going on at the time. Sometimes aspects can be both at the same time. Or neither. From a binary point of view, it's very confusing. Hard to keep up with what is what, and when it is what it is.
It isn't breaking free from the binary, was never there to begin with. If you're Trans, you have never been a part of the binary, but you see it all around you, all the time. We see it and know what it is, but really never actually experience it, we might think we have, but thinking about it again, probably not. At best, we might be faking our way through it, life can be a lot simpler that way. But the best of it is that we can experience things as either masculine or feminine, the other way around, at the same time, or not at all. Binary definitions are a nuisance to use, but our language revolves around it, if you think binary, there are hard fast rules to most aspects of life. This is that and those are this, either masculine or feminine. Some things can be both or neither, but most everything is looked at, experienced as either male or female by definition.
Gender-fluidity is experienced by us to a much larger extent, it depends... Could be as fluid as molasses in January or as liquid as water, the viscosity of how we experience things are different from the stereo typical binary definitions. When we talk about it, we use the language, but we use it differently, there is no honest way to explain it, because we all use it in different ways, different viscosity's. The more we discuss it, the more we share our experience, the better we understand it as a community. We benefit from that, it isn't for the binary community that we do this, we do it for ourselves. They want us to explain it for them, but they want us to explain it in terms that they use. We can't, our experiences are different. Explain binary to me in the ways I understand things, I'd like to know how they do that. We don't owe anyone an explanation, if they really want to know, they should pay attention and at least try to imagine how we experience life. 'Learning to deal with it, well, that's the journey isn't it. Learning to embrace it.' Learning to deal with it, to embrace it, that's the journey, that's our experience, one we can can share and understand that it is different for each of us, but farther away from the binary. If the binary wants to know, they're going to have to learn it just as we have, we live this, it's our journey, the way we experience the world. We don't owe an explanation, but we can explain that it is life experienced in a different way, and if they want to know, they need to acknowledge this. Just like we acknowledge their life experience, because we are immersed in it. We discuss, we talk, use whatever ways we can find to show our own experiences to others who are looking for their own, at the same time. It never ends, it's our journey's, our lives as experience. It isn't breaking away from the binary, we were never there to begin with.
I can put on my beater shoes and not remember if they are sized as woman's or men's anymore, it doesn't matter. They fit, they're comfy, I experience the various aspects of them as both masculine and feminine at the same time, yet they are just an old pair of shoes. That's a sense of fluidity, gender fluidity. To me, even new I suppose, that pair of shoes were never a part of the binary, yet I found them in a binary section of the store. I didn't break them away from that binary, I never saw them that way to begin with. A binary person might see it as breaking them away from it, but that's because they experience those shoes as either or. Gender fluidity is the ability to view the world as more than either or, to be able to mix and match all the aspects of life in the way we see it. Gender fluidity: How do binary's break away from it, and is it being free from something? Because we don't really need to define our experiences, we aren't breaking away from the binary anymore than they can break away from us. It's just how experiences are seen, felt, how all these simple things that are aspects can be seen in different ways. Trying to define them is far less important than sharing them, that's how we learn, find the paths that fit our own journey's. Gender fluidity isn't about things on a line between two things It's about the realization that they are all around us and that we can experience them in different ways. Ativan
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Post by Ayla on Nov 8, 2015 4:06:41 GMT 8
We define things differently, because we experience life in a different way, our definitions reflect that. Even within the NB community, it's difficult because our experiences are, and can be extremely, different. You can however, tell us who you are, because we recognize those differences of experience even if ours are different, we know this and can work with it. It isn't breaking free from the binary, was never there to begin with. If you're Trans, you have never been a part of the binary, but you see it all around you, all the time. We see it and know what it is, but really never actually experience it, we might think we have, but thinking about it again, probably not. At best, we might be faking our way through it, life can be a lot simpler that way. But the best of it is that we can experience things as either masculine or feminine, the other way around, at the same time, or not at all. Binary definitions are a nuisance to use, but our language revolves around it, if you think binary, there are hard fast rules to most aspects of life. This is that and those are this, either masculine or feminine. Some things can be both or neither, but most everything is looked at, experienced as either male or female by definition. Gender-fluidity is experienced by us to a much larger extent, it depends... Could be as fluid as molasses in January or as liquid as water, the viscosity of how we experience things are different from the stereo typical binary definitions. When we talk about it, we use the language, but we use it differently, there is no honest way to explain it, because we all use it in different ways, different viscosity's. The more we discuss it, the more we share our experience, the better we understand it as a community. We benefit from that, it isn't for the binary community that we do this, we do it for ourselves. They want us to explain it for them, but they want us to explain it in terms that they use. We can't, our experiences are different. Explain binary to me in the ways I understand things, I'd like to know how they do that. We don't owe anyone an explanation, if they really want to know, they should pay attention and at least try to imagine how we experience life. 'Learning to deal with it, well, that's the journey isn't it. Learning to embrace it.'Learning to deal with it, to embrace it, that's the journey, that's our experience, one we can can share and understand that it is different for each of us, but farther away from the binary. If the binary wants to know, they're going to have to learn it just as we have, we live this, it's our journey, the way we experience the world. We don't owe an explanation, but we can explain that it is life experienced in a different way, and if they want to know, they need to acknowledge this. Just like we acknowledge their life experience, because we are immersed in it. We discuss, we talk, use whatever ways we can find to show our own experiences to others who are looking for their own, at the same time. It never ends, it's our journey's, our lives as experience. It isn't breaking away from the binary, we were never there to begin with. Gender fluidity is the ability to view the world as more than either or, to be able to mix and match all the aspects of life in the way we see it. Gender fluidity: How do binary's break away from it, and is it being free from something? Because we don't really need to define our experiences, we aren't breaking away from the binary anymore than they can break away from us. It's just how experiences are seen, felt, how all these simple things that are aspects can be seen in different ways. Trying to define them is far less important than sharing them, that's how we learn, find the paths that fit our own journey's. Gender fluidity isn't about things on a line between two things It's about the realization that they are all around us and that we can experience them in different ways. Ativan Ativan Your post really nails it. Binary folk do struggle to understand us, just as we struggle to understand them. It is more than frustrating not being able to cross this gap. Respect is perhaps the best and only means of reconciling our paradigms. A label is never enough. We need to be more than a label. Attaching a label without living our reality confounds critics and frustrates ourselves. Our curse and our blessing is a life long journey to learn to deal with it, to embrace it and to live as authentically as possible. We can't change folk but they can observe, learn and share. In turn they have found that they can't change us. Interestingly this is one area of my life where I also find it impossible to change myself. The only change that has occurred has flown from resisting or embracing my truth. It is a stark choice. It is a choice between damage and pain or growth and celebration. I choose growth. Safe travels Aisla
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Post by Trinity on Nov 9, 2015 3:16:31 GMT 8
...not part of.... I look at men, women, i understand i am fundamentally different from them. Or we are. Either or...gunna be common.
So their rules are not mine, but in surviving the oppression of the binary, different parts of me surface. I play the game, i fit in. But in my mind its a game, its not real. But i play it so well i can forget the game. I can be trapped into the binary. I become stuck. I begin fighting me.
As i feel safer and more accepted, that emotional center i call sh'e and they kicks in, i feel safe, i stop pretending. It only happens around other nb's. I drop the bullshit. The veils come down.
I may run the roles and enjoy them and often do. It feels fluid, it is an immersion into that part of self. It isnt in opposition of self it is an increase in volume on a part of who i am. That for me is fluid, the music plays on. The less i control the better the music sounds, the more real it feels.
So not being bound to binary rules sets the music of gender free. Not being afraid to listen to the symphony in my mind, heart, soul...body...sex...all of it. Its a total experience.
Some is consistantly feminine, my body is this way. Some is more towards the male, my work life is that way. One is more physical one more social...more involved with social constructs. Even the physical can go there, but my physical is very she indeed. There is nothing wrong with that. It is my deasign, the one i was born with. Not birth organs but birth wiring, a nonbinary self.
Learning to stop fighting the music but to listen to it makes it beautiful.
Letting the binary or bigots come in and rewrite my heartsong ruins it.
Embrace the music. Each masterpeice is unique.
You are a masterpeice. Hear your music, the music of your genders.
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Post by Leena on Nov 9, 2015 13:30:33 GMT 8
Here's the thing. The gender you present as at any given time, is perfect if it feels perfect. I usually look something like a woman. Sometimes fem, sometimes pretty butch. It is all okay because it is all okay with me. HRT is not required, consistency is not required. What anyone else chooses to think is irrelevant. Being happy in your own skin is both the object and the goal. I'm using Mx as my day to day gender designation right now because that is inclusive and fun. It's not quite perfect, though it's getting there. I feel more like a girl than a guy, I've pretty much always felt that. That is part of my issue with pretty much all of these labels. They all tend to imply a 50/50 split. They also don't really take into account one's AAB gender, which does shape how one turns out, as most of us were forced to live as that for quite some time. I went through a period of time when I was mentally very fluid, and thinking way too much about what gender I was mentally at any given moment. I found looking at this like that somewhat disturbing. I really do feel a lot better when I think of myself mentally as just a woman. I just am a woman who's body looks a little different than most women. I'm not sure being non-passing makes one non-binary, though it does tend to make me go more for an androgynous look, rather than a look I just can't pull off. Gender presentation, gender identity, and sexual orientation are all different things. The way I see it right now, my gender identity is woman, my presentation is androgynous though going more and more femme, and I'm still only attracted to women.
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Post by Ayla on Nov 9, 2015 19:04:22 GMT 8
Here's the thing. The gender you present as at any given time, is perfect if it feels perfect. I usually look something like a woman. Sometimes fem, sometimes pretty butch. It is all okay because it is all okay with me. HRT is not required, consistency is not required. What anyone else chooses to think is irrelevant. Being happy in your own skin is both the object and the goal. I'm using Mx as my day to day gender designation right now because that is inclusive and fun. It's not quite perfect, though it's getting there. I feel more like a girl than a guy, I've pretty much always felt that. That is part of my issue with pretty much all of these labels. They all tend to imply a 50/50 split. They also don't really take into account one's AAB gender, which does shape how one turns out, as most of us were forced to live as that for quite some time. I went through a period of time when I was mentally very fluid, and thinking way too much about what gender I was mentally at any given moment. I found looking at this like that somewhat disturbing. I really do feel a lot better when I think of myself mentally as just a woman. I just am a woman who's body looks a little different than most women. I'm not sure being non-passing makes one non-binary, though it does tend to make me go more for an androgynous look, rather than a look I just can't pull off. Gender presentation, gender identity, and sexual orientation are all different things. The way I see it right now, my gender identity is woman, my presentation is androgynous though going more and more femme, and I'm still only attracted to women. Wow So much that you have shared resonates with me. I have also clung to the non binary identity with everything that I have. It seemed to make sense as I had previously backed away from transition level hormones, had a bilateral breast reduction and had felt uncomfortable with the whole performance aspect of presenting classically female. Indeed for the last 4 years, low dose hrt has smoothed my path and the dysphoria has been under largely under control, while I have slowly presented as more androgynous as my hair lengthened and facial hair etc was removed one follicle at a time. All seemed very good and as it should be - if I increased hrt then I felt fuzzy and when I reduced dosage the dysphoria came back with a vengeance; until almost simultaneously: - I stopped hrt completely and I was totally overwhelmed by dysphoria, it was totally debilitating to the point where my wife 'told' me to get back on hrt and to never stop taking it. - My daughter left home and my son finished University - I ramped up my hrt and felt immediate relief, almost euphoria and took higher dosages of hrt than ever before and this time there was no 'fuzzy' thinking, just a sense of completeness - I joined a business with a diverse team, average age of 29 and came out as trans to each interviewer during the interview process. They didn't blink. - Finished electro and started tying my hair in a man bun and then in a pony tail - Shed the business suit and adopted a gender neutral, well manicured presentation both at work and socially This led me to speak with my therapist and my endo. I started both discussions feeling/thinking that the environment had shifted - obstacles had disappeared and constraints removed. As always they asked the questions and I found the answers. It's almost as though because circumstances had fundamentally changed that I could accept that I may be less non binary than I had thought and had stated. As a result I felt it was time, time to stop driving my HRT with endo approval, so I had an E pellet implanted to ensure consistency and commitment to progress. It represents a material increase on low dose hrt and is at the lower end of transition dosage. We will review this in 3 months with the opportunity for a further increase in dosage. The upshot is that I have never, ever felt so good, so authentic ... like VL " The way I see it right now, my gender identity is woman, my presentation is androgynous though going more and more femme, and I'm still only attracted to women." And like Minga I agree and now understand that "The gender you present as at any given time, is perfect if it feels perfect ... What anyone else chooses to think is irrelevant. Being happy in your own skin is both the object and the goal."This forum is a special place and our fellow travellers have much wisdom and support to share. Thank you Minga and VL for your wisdom and for your contribution. Safe travels Aisla
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Post by Trinity on Nov 10, 2015 1:15:08 GMT 8
Wow quite the shifting my dear.
I hope I have time to write later, I may not. I need to get my daughter from the airport- she shut down a family convo yesterday about gender constructs and nonbinary. Shut it cold. Pissed my other daughter off no end.
Bringing me to point.
If you had no constraints who would you be, where would you be, how would you be?
I had the brakes off for 6 weeks, found my answers to this. Got to live as myself.
Personally, I am not and probably never will be a woman spirit in a body. Transitioned or not. But I am a unique spirit nonetheless and have my own gender, one that is attractive, one that is in some ways the mirror image of Jayce. Or maybe in many ways.
Pressured into nonbinarism? Hmm. Or pressured into binarism. That is where the smoke and mirrors live, yet, when it clears, hey, if its real its real.
I have met very real and authentic nonbinaries and very real and authentic binary transpeople. No judgement on either. But the effects of living as ourselves, those dynamics can be very different depending on where we end up on this.
Pressures of environment and/or hormones on gender self perception. If you are not wise to this, trouble can lie ahead. If you know the answers, I suspect that whatever prices we pay on the path we walk will be more than worth it.
I like being a me.
Trinity
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Post by Ayla on Nov 10, 2015 4:49:23 GMT 8
Trinity
A shift of tectonic plates is a good analogy. Most of my life I have been so very cautious and perhaps overly considerate of others and of my 'reputation' etc. When constraints are removed and the environment changes, excuses disappear. There is a path and I felt that it needed to be explored and it was calling me onwards. Perhaps it will take me to a better place. Rather than stay where I am and sensing but ignoring a better view, I thought that further exploration was long overdue.
I am still not convinced that I am binary mtf but I don't wish to die wondering and am now open to this possibility. Besides no harm should be done.
Whilst probably the subject of another thread, the Endo's explanation of the reaction of the brain to hrt and his observation that many low dose patients, after many years, move on to transition when social, work and family constraints were removed - made me think. He also said that most low dose clients ultimately seek more rather than less hrt. He speculated but said that it had not been investigated that the brain, once hrt is introduced develops an appetite and need for more. He said that there is still so much that we don't know about gender identity, brain structure and hormones.
However I really need to stop thinking and to start doing, start living and to be fully present and authentic, so here goes.
safe travels
Aisla
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Post by Trinity on Nov 10, 2015 5:46:26 GMT 8
Usually volcanos erupt LOL.
I have the advantage of having lived in all presentations, and continuing to do so. Depending on mood, or on where emotions run, I will be wherever I am. Environment has a lot to do with it, behind the wheel of a racecar the masculine associated strength and aggression goes full throttle so to speak. Put me on the highway in rush hour same thing. Put me in a heavy business climate and out he comes. But, there is always the butt. I am not a man, not anymore. Yet, I am.
There really is no honest way to explain it is there. I love being out as sh'e, the transgender female appearing androgyne when I go full out. I love the attention, the body feeling, the chance to let my hair down, literally and figuratively. But always, always, I am conscious that I am a blended gender, unique in itself, yet probably very much in common with other nonbinary spirits.
Its the spirit, the core. I am not a girl, but, I am, yet, I am not. I am not a man, but, I am, yet, I am not.
I am a transperson.
You are too. IMHO. Though what that means to you, may be much different than what that means to me.
And this freedom I have found is beyond any price. I hope others find it as well, and live it to the hilt.
Love to all here
Trinity
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