Anyone else get this?

[Taka]

i think the thing here is that people think it's perfectly ok for a faab to be an effeminate man (can't imagine them masculine, because you know.. boobs and vagina...) it vould never be all that ok for a maab to be effeminate, unless he is planning to go flaming gay or something. it's that age old sexism again.

i've been told there's nothing wrong with being a masculine woman.
but i'm not particularly masculine. ijust lack a good sense of femininity. doesn't make me masculine, just weird.
actually, it seems to me that masculinity doesn't have much to do with being macho. you'll be perceived male online as long as you just don't add any femininity. and a woman will be seen as masculine if she lacks femininity.

what the hell is masculinity, really?
i've never been able to find an answer to that. being a perv and liking football is way into the macho, me just being my normal me is seen as masculine.
except when i suddenly act girly. that confuses people.

or maybe it's just me who's weird. my sister is really feminine with no effort at all, seems she's born like that.
so it might just be that my nature is masculine enough that i don't notice those traits and can't think of them as anything other than normal.
but is that really so...?

i wish i had as good a grasp on these things as edge.
gender confuses me, particularly stereotypical traits and roles and seeing people act all naturally like a stereotype.

[Edge]

I am also not sure exactly what "masculine" and "feminine" mean either. I just know that, whenever people refer to me being feminine, they expect me relate to their love of make up and softer behaviour and distaste for aggression and "macho" behaviour.

I recently came out as genderfluid to a trans friend of mine. She was cool with it which is cool, but at the same time, she really didn't get it. She automatically assumed I was talking about my expression instead of my gender which is fracking annoying. She also said that she'd love to see me do a more feminine expression and that it would be cool to do a series from my more "feminine" side to my "toughest" side. Ffs. All of my sides are tough.
Also, my expression doesn't necessarily indicate which gender I am. As I said, guys in skirts are hot. Neither does my expression have anything to do with how tough I am.

[Taka]

powerful men get lots of women, so it obviously can't be considered unfeminine to love aggression and the macho.
there's also this saying about "a woman scorned". feminine rage is absolutely scary, but still feminine since nobody says the same about masculine rage.
some languages place women in the same gender-like category as fire and knives. femininity is absolutely dangerous.
the koreans however, have made a separate gender category for ajummas, because they aren't perceived as feminine at all. seems like mothers are too busy raising children almost alone to bother about their feminine charm.
and then there is the saami culture where not even the machoest man could possibly be stronger than a grandma. that strength is a very feminine trait.
no wonder i'm confused.

different cultures and subcultures etc probably have very different views of what femininity really is. different female and male ideals.

masculinity is more mysterious. i've no idea what that would be, other than obvious physical signs of high testosterone.
would be more interesting to discuss manliness.

[Edge]

Heh. You sound like me before I found out about this stuff. You're right. Obviously, this stuff makes no sense. How come it's not obvious to everyone?
When I started looking around to help figure out what my gender is and what gender is in general, I learned what modern, western gender roles are and that people actually believe in them. They're some of the stupidest things I have ever heard of.
I wish I had never learned that. I wish people weren't stupid enough and sexist enough to believe that crap in the first place. I've seriously lost all faith in humanity.

[Ativan Prescribed]

The imaginary line between feminine and masculine is getting more and more blurred all the time.
It's those who choose to believe the archaic messages from cheap advertisers for their 'distinctly' feminine/masculine products that there is a gap, rather than a blurred line between the two who I have lost faith in.
Because it exists at all is why it enters innocently enough into conversations, but it is built into the language used, and thinking tends to revolve around it.
It is to a large extent, the flawed reasoning that there is a line between to imaginary things that we all exist on.
To even explain it away, you have to incorporate it and use binary language, it is so soundly ingrained into western culture.
When descriptions fail to answer the question of just what they are, it should be assumed that they are indeed, imaginary.
If you think about it, it builds a strong case for the basis of non-binary. See how it is even incorporated into that?
Every time the endless conversation ends without a clear definition of either/both, they are defining who NB are.
Take it out of the equation and there isn't a need to even use the term NB.
Imaginary lines, we even use them to divide up the human species into race based on black lines on a map.
It all depends on who is drawing those maps and using those imaginary lines.
Interesting show on Neflix, 'Acsension', watch it and see how 600 people born on a spceship fifty years out on a voyage from 1963 have blurred some of what it all means, despite that they still use the ideals from then as a way to maintain order, it holds people into categories based not only on sex, but on what deck they live on.
I won't give away what it points to, but it is a stark reminder of just how fucked up all of the notions above play out.
With a twist.

[Edge]

The lines aren't blurred because there are no lines. There never were. The fact that anyone believes there are is what makes me lose faith in humanity. I mean, how stupid can be people be?
Actually, whenever people claim that any gender identity, non-binary or otherwise, has anything to do with gender roles, they are essentially saying that our genders are not real. It's infuriating, insulting, transphobic, ignores science, and makes a very good case against non-binary and any other gender identities.
Gender is not, never has been, and never will be gender roles.
But, of course, I could repeat this until my fingers bleed and still no one would listen to me.

[Taka]

Jun 22, 2015 23:04:15 GMT 8 Edge said:

Heh. You sound like me before I found out about this stuff. You're right. Obviously, this stuff makes no sense. How come it's not obvious to everyone?
When I started looking around to help figure out what my gender is and what gender is in general, I learned what modern, western gender roles are and that people actually believe in them. They're some of the stupidest things I have ever heard of.
I wish I had never learned that. I wish people weren't stupid enough and sexist enough to believe that crap in the first place. I've seriously lost all faith in humanity.

you mean, before you found out it's all a lie?
i think i lost faith in grade school. not because of the absurdity of gender roles, i still didn't have the "right" grasp on it, and mostly just did what my parents told me because they refused to love me if i didn't.
they'd even punish me for being myself, so i didn't do too much of that in the end
that's one thing that made my faith dwindle, and another thing is seeing how kids in my school were bullied for their good qualities.
the teachers didn't do anything to help either, and insisted there was no bullying in my school, because the bullies never used physical violence.
we all got along so well on the surface. and most people only care about the superficial. appearances. things that don't actually matter.

but the reason masculinity and femininity confuse me still, is that i often unconsciously sort people into different types, tagging them as rather gendered things.
so i wonder if i do that because i think of it as gender qualities, or just because gendered words are convenient to use on different personality types.
actual sex or gender don't matter in this, so maybe i'm just using the wrong tags, because some personality traits that fit the types i personally see have been associated with different gender terms by society.

how do i even explain that...
i don't see "girl" as a gender, but a (rather general, there are so many variations within) personality type that has many of the traits that gender stereotypists would like to force onto young faabs.
my own "girl" category crosses the imaginary gender lines severely (and i'm talking about gender, not just sex or gaab) and should probably be called something very different. there just aren't any good existing words for it.



well, thank you for helping me clear up my confusion. i finally get why i had troubles with those words.
but no i completely lack terminology for a lot of things i'll want to say about people.

[Edge]

Jun 23, 2015 20:12:26 GMT 8 Taka said:

you mean, before you found out it's all a lie?

Uh... No. That assumption makes no sense. Where did I say anything that gave that impression? You're putting words in my mouth that are completely wrong, insulting, and I really don't appreciate it.
Let me repeat this again. I mean before I found out what gender roles are and that people are stupid enough to believe in them. Which is what I said. How, exactly, can that possibly be misinterpreted to mean finding out it's all a lie?
Up until a few years ago, I didn't know what gender roles were. Can't find out that something's a lie if you don't know that something exists in the first place. Which it doesn't, but idiots believe it does.
When I did find out what gender roles were, I was shocked that humanity is really that stupid. (I wish there was a word for this level of stupidity.) People's huge amount of stupidity is why I lost faith in humanity.
For the record, I found out what gender roles were because I started accepting that I was trans, but was confused about what that means and what gender is, so I went looking for information. What I found was a bunch of people who told me about gender roles. I went through a period of time where I was horrified and started trying to deny being trans again because I thought their gender role definition of gender was the correct one and that I must also be that stupid for feeling like a guy. I will honestly kill myself if I ever do get that stupid. Luckily, I quickly found evidence that gender is actually brain sex and has nothing what-so-ever to do with gender roles.

Assuming that finding out that obviously absurd crap is absurd crap would make me lose faith in humanity is extremely insulting to me. Assuming that I ever believed in that obviously absurd crap is extremely insulting to me.
How many times am I going to have to repeat myself before people listen to me?

[Taka]

Jun 23, 2015 22:27:02 GMT 8 Edge said:

Jun 23, 2015 20:12:26 GMT 8 Taka said:

you mean, before you found out it's all a lie?

Assuming that finding out that obviously absurd crap is absurd crap would make me lose faith in humanity is extremely insulting to me. Assuming that I ever believed in that obviously absurd crap is extremely insulting to me.
How many times am I going to have to repeat myself before people listen to me?

i really did mean that as a question, edge. because i didn't get what you meant. i can be slow on the uptake, and that's what i ask.
please don't take it as putting words in your mouth, because i was in no way trying to do that.

and right now, you're actually making assumptions about my assumptions.
i find that a tiny bit hurtful, really.

we don't have the same experiences, so when i can't find a meeting point, i'll have to ask.
and i'll get it wrong. and i actually want you to tell me where i'm going wrong, so i can get it right.
i'm not going to just lie and say i totally get what you mean, when i only understood part of it.

apparently it's insulting to you that i try to understand your point of view.
sorry about that. i never learned to read other people's thoughts that perfectly.
only way i can learn is to make guesses and be corrected when i'm wrong.
guesses aren't the same as assumptions though.


i should probably try to tell you something about how i totally didn't assume anything of what you assume i assume.
you're also misunderstanding me.
but right now i just don't feel like it.
almost every time i try to understand you, you'll find something i write insulting.
sorry for being an idiot. i apparently lack the intelligence to be on friendly terms with you, since i'm unable to follow your lines of thought perfectly.

[Ativan Prescribed]

Jun 23, 2015 22:27:02 GMT 8 Edge said:

Jun 23, 2015 20:12:26 GMT 8 Taka said:

Assuming that I ever believed in that obviously absurd crap is extremely insulting to me.
How many times am I going to have to repeat myself before people listen to me?

People pretty much quit listening after you've repeatedly told them they're stupid, with no real solution or answer that makes sense to them.
Not everyone thinks like you do. Your aggressive style is sometimes seen as bullying and people just turn their backs to it.
It has been duly noted, your take on it, and repeating that same line over and over leaves some just ignoring it.
People listened and responded, just because you don't like what they have to say doesn't make them stupid and if you have lost faith in anyone here, that's your problem.
People listened, how many times do people have to respond to you before you get that?

Yep, everyone gets that we all insult you and that you are going to keep repeating that line until everyone agrees with you the way you want them to.
But they already have in their own ways. So how many times do they have to agree with you before you get that?
How many ways can they agree with you as they understand it before you realize people have listened to that same line repeatedly?
What, do we all have to say it the same way, use your words before you accept that people have been agreeing with you and even asking you questions that you answer with calling them stupid among other things that are as extremely insulting to them, as you seem to be insulted by anything that anyone has to say?

Geez, just take it down a notch and try to discuss it in ways that others can understand your point of view, if you think it's different.
I know you're intelligent enough to be able to do that, so take that part up a notch and take the aggressive insults down one.
Maybe you won't have to keep repeating that 'how many times,.. before people listen to me' line.
It can just as easily be asked of you, how many times is it going to take before you start listening to others?
Difference is, that nobody has intentionally insulted your intelligence or said they have lost faith in you.

[Edge]

Yes. "Thoughts." The ones I wrote down clearly in words that people can read that mean exactly what they say. That must be so hard.
I made assumptions did I? Fine. So what is "it" in the phrase "before you found out it was all a lie?"
If "it" is gender roles, that is the definitely insulting my intelligence and, since I've said so many times before, there's no way that wasn't intentional.
Humanity = the human race. Stupidity = the belief in gender roles.
Maybe I wouldn't be so aggressive about it if people bothered listening to me when I'm not aggressive. But they don't.
Apparently, I am not intelligent enough to discuss it ways other people can understand.

[Taka]

still not making me want to explain it.
if you're truly interested, i'd like you to talks less about insults and more about communication.

i already know i suck at communication. but i don't feel like regretting how insulting that is to you.

not sure i'll want to talk to you again. i do hold you in rather high esteem, but i can't deal with the way you talk to me. it hurt me, probably a lot more than i insult you, and that's just not a healthy form of communication for me.

i wish you luck communicating with others, there will likely be others out there who are much better at this than me.

[Ativan Prescribed]

This is still an important discussion, maybe not the does 'Anyone else get this' part, the original post, but some different points were brought up that were addressed in various ways.
They hit mainly on what are several different things and there were various ways of talking about what they mean to different people.
My own take on it is, What is gender, What are gender roles, and gender roles that evolved into gender Stereotypes.
Gender is a very real thing. Something in this has to be real and recent discussions in society have been further refining just what it is.
Yep, we do have an innate sense of gender, the definition is still being refined into simple enough terms to readily explain it.

I look at it as how did it evolve to begin with, surely it had some sort of starting point, and biology has many examples of it, enough to make it confusing to a degree.
Various molecules that we classify as organic got together and made something of themselves, to a point that they also figured out a way to replicate.
Gender of a sort began, you needed some of this, that some had, to combine with some of this, that others had.
Things evolved over time, a lot of time, I don't know, lets just call it billions of years, not only did they replicate, but they also spun off other things that became separate because of distinct differences.
Species, different species is how we classify them, yet they all have the same origins, but enough differences that we can and do classify them.

Humans showed up eventually and that's pretty much what the discussion revolves around, that particular species, us, homo-sapiens, and the differences within that species.
The gender part, people have questioned and made lots of assumptions, assumptions are just what people believe to be true based on what they know, but there are always parts missing, so they aren't really true, because of that, but they can and are so compelling to some that they do believe them to be true, absolutes, 'nothing new here' kind of thinking.
We are who we are because of our DNA which can be traced back pretty damn far, and that's just some parts of it.
DNA is the code that makes us who we are, and over all this time, a lot has been added on in various ways and we don't use all of it, all of the time.
Parts of it are used depending on whether they are switched on or not, the code has sections that when switched on, and if it's not the same as anothers, we can find differences within the species.

Gender is one of the things that can be switched on, but like everything else, there are a lot of variations in how this can be done.
Gender in this discussion is really about brain structure and what has and hasn't been switched on in our DNA, the how's and why's are a complicated discussion and it's not all that necessary to know the finer points of how this happens to understand that it does in ways that we know there are different ways or variations within brain structures, and how it affects innate thinking or feelings.
Gender is just a part of that DNA switching process.
How it's determined as to the switching on or lack of also has some proof that this is so.
Just like there are switches that are flipped on, or not, that determine our body structures, the thing that supports the brain, and is used for replicating.
Just like brain structures, there are variations in body structures as well.
It isn't that hard to figure out that within those variations, some defy assumptions that are easy, simplistic, and without knowing or really thinking about it, some take as absolutes.

Sometimes the part of the brain structure that determines our innate feeling of gender doesn't match up with the expected body for that gender.
The common assumption is that whatever your body structure is, that is what your gender is.
Easy and simplistic, you can readily see the body, you can't see the brain and it's structure, so body becomes the assumed sex, and it is assumed that the gender is the same.
We know this isn't always the case, in some rather large polls, the accuracy of this is off by about 20%, based on body sex and the difference of how gender is perceived has a variation factor of about 20%, meaning a majority of people are somewhere between 0% and 20% variation, but it tends to be more towards that 20% according to answers in these polls or poll.
This is important, it comes as a surprise to those who make the assumption that your sex is your gender, and makes that assumption questionable right there, that it isn't an absolute, so it is at least partially imaginary.

But that's not all, that's just what was reported because it affects a majority of people.
There is the other side of that 20% and it shows variation all the way to gender and sex don't match at all.
The simplistic easy absolute about gender and body, or sex, is completely severed for some, a small percentage maybe, but it's there, people have been saying this for a long time.
It's been shown that biologically, it can be true. They have seen differences in the brain that don't match up with the sex of that person.
That's based on that majority of people on the other side of that 20% line, the ones who's sex and innate sense of gender pretty much match up.
It's also readily seen in other species as well, so right there, that opens up the possibility that what they see in a brain can easily be that it might not match up with the body.
Even in the variations of sex in some bodies of species, as well as humans, there is variation.
In humans, just because they can fix the appearance of this at birth, they do because of this long held assumption about sex and gender, and the binary.

What this means, is that the long held assumption that sex and gender are one and the same isn't necessarily true, there are variations that show they are two different things.
So that assumption of sex=gender doesn't stand up. This is important to know for a bunch of reason's, but one of them is gender roles.
If there is variation between sex and gender and we can readily see variations in bodies, it stands to reason that gender has variations as well.
The idea that one gender is this way and another is this way is an assumption that  now has a high degree of evidence that gender has a lot of variation.
If this is true, that makes gender roles false, you can't say there are distinct roles based on sex or gender, there's to much variation.
Gender roles are an assumption that we know is false because of this, yet because of it's long held belief, it's still true in some peoples minds, their thinking, that gender roles are an absolute of at least some kind.
The assumption has been shown to be false to various degrees, enough to be able to say it is a false assumption, so it is imaginary, just a way of thinking, a trick if you want to see it that way.
Gender roles have nothing to do with gender, they are developed reactions to an assumption that gender is the same as sex and there are mostly two and it follows that there are two genders and they are different, so they have different functions to perform.

And there it is, it's a performance. It's changed over time, there are even assumptions that are held so hard and fast that some assume these roles go back to day one of the human species.
The earliest people are often portrayed in these roles, only because of that assumption, which has now been shown to be a performance.
They don't really know and make all kinds of assumptions about these gender roles in the past that they really don't have any absolute proof of it.
There's lots of stories about performances that defy the common held belief in these roles, which you'd think those who see these assumptions as absolutes, it would change their thinking of them as absolutes, but they don't, they just pass them off as aberrations, flukes, on the order of things as they see it based on assumptions.
Gender roles are only real in the sense that a lot of people believe in them, but simply believing something without hard facts that are absolute, doesn't make them true or real.
It's people playing an assigned role that society has determined they need to play. All the world is a stage, lol.
Even language is spoken in such a way, that because the roles played are so ingrained into thinking, that it takes on the same characteristics.

This goes around to stereotypical roles. See, right there the language defines that there are two roles to play, stereo-typical.
Odd thing about stereotypical roles is that they are often broken, they defy the roles played on the stage of life.
People take note of them, and because they are often business, money, fashion, generated, stereotypical changes can change the general gender roles.
So it just stands to reason, common sense that stereotypical is very much imagination and not real.

You can choose to believe this version of an explanation, and it's just one of many versions, or you can believe in the assumption that has been long held because it just looked that way.
The easy way is to just not invest time and effort into thinking it through and looking at the evidence.
Which is weird to me, because doing so involves an awful lot of effort to hang on to it, so why not use that effort to at least look at the evidence, and if you're going to do that, a little more effort into considering the evidence goes a long ways in discovering what others already have, that gender roles are imaginary and society dictates that we play them on life's stage.
The looked at hard way is to put in the time and effort to look at and understand that roles, gender and sex have been redefined.
The effort to investigate and make a decision on your own. The evidence we have points in a direction and has proof.
Sex doesn't equal gender, and roles are just a way of playing out assumed roles based on the assumption that gender comes in only two flavors.

What you believe is determined by where you put the effort and if you even make an effort to understand something that has become controversial.
That effort is determined by how much effort you put into playing roles, or even playing the roles that defy the standard two gender system.
So it comes down to how you use that effort in some ways that also define your innate sense of gender being something other than binary based.
You can put effort into thinking of it as a blend of the binary and keep that system of binary active, or you can put your efforts elsewhere and just forget the assumption of binary gender.
Either way, in doing so, you determine that there is such a thing as NB, and if you do as a gender,.. We're still working on defining it into terms we can readily understand and explain.
On the worlds stage, NB goes boldly where no person has gone before, to borrow a TV stage play's line, or you can just get off that stage and be you.

Fuck the system.
Ativan (NB)

[Deleted]

Dims follow spot as Ativan fades into shadow.

Lights come up on stage, flashes in history, streetcar named desire,  the binary play of the past.  Or was it the Glass Menagerie.  The main characters, binary extremes, are lit isolated in the back.
  

 Up front, another set of lights, many colored, rainbow light, and the players...Young people center stage mixing it up, hard to identify, roles are gone.

Stanley looks on, appalled, beer gut hanging over his belt, wonders what the heck is wrong with the new genderation.   The woman, call her Blanche, watches baffled.  This is not what she was taught was feminine, what was right.  Hands go on hips, arms cross, rigidity sets into body language.
 
The lights go down on  Blanche and Stanley, and begin to fade up on the beauty of the dance beginning center stage, moves that are expressive, that are freed.  Sexes are blurred, roles are gone, it is a symphony of humanity.

The crowd watching it all divides, some like it, some hate it.   They begin to argue, it is not what they expected, it is different from their norm.

Then, Slowly the mirror of truth descends from the rigging above


Reflections of the masses.  As the youth dance free, and the crowd stares in bewilderment.

This was not the script they expected.  Who wrote this stuff in....

The dance continues.  The old is failing, the truth will be made known.

Dance my dear ones, dance to the music of your own gender in your souls.

[Deleted]

On the other hand.

I cant help wondering why I gravitate to such a broad spectrum of presentation styles. An act? There is a lot of pleasure in each of the expressions, depending on what section of the choir or symphony has the spotlight.

I enjoy being a sensual woman, I enjoy being a rather good looking guy in a leather jacket, and I enjoy the gender nonpspecific androgyne presentation I often live socially in. Havoc comes when she wants it all, no doubt. But I like wandering the spectrum. And I find the female side to be a rather attractive woman.

Now to turn that to topic, where does that fit in here? Yes there are constants... identity is one now, sexuality is another, body another. So the brain structure... well it fits the DES pattern I'm fairly sure of that, for me specifically. Darned well too.

Peace seems to come in the mix of gender and not fighting it when they want to feel themselves. But not let one run off and take the rest of us with her.

Shoot I could play any of those stage parts equally well, except I got no beer gut. Are they all part of our individual humanity? And those were roles for sure.

Thats just it. Its almost like something could be wrong with looking drop dead gorgeous feminine or wow what a stud. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater kind of thing. Beauty to me, is inside, yes, but eyes and makeup and hair and boobs and but and how its clothed, hey, it matters, I like the hot lace. And frankly we can do that hair on or off, heels on or off. Or stud type deal, the inverse of this. Pretty eyes are pretty eyes.

Gender is so wierd.

If we fluxuate, how does it fit the Ativan post?

I still think of myself as a gender anomoly. Unique gender perception. Easier to define as who we are not. Instead of who we are.

-Trin.